Treating ADHD Naturally - Interview with Dr Connie McReynolds

welcome back to another episode of Christian Natural Health today I'm so pleased to have Dr Connie MC reyolds with us Dr MC Reynolds is a licensed

psychologist and certified Rehabilitation counselor with more than 30 years of experience in the field of

Rehabilitation Counseling and psychology she is the founder of neuro feedback clinics in Southern California working

with children and adults to reduce or eliminate conditions of ADHD anger anxiety depression chronic pain learning

problems and Trauma she recently published the book solving the ADHD riddle the real cause and Lasting

solutions to your child's struggle to learn welcome Dr mcreynold thanks so much for joining us thank you so much

for having me it's a pleasure to be here today I look forward to our conversation yeah me too so ADHD is like such a trend

right now on social media espe so uh tell us a little bit about not just what

the symptoms are I think everybody kind of knows the symptoms for that but maybe a brief overview there uh but then also

what do you find as being some of the most common underlying causes for ADHD and I think it's a great starting point

because it is a Hot Topic I think it's been a topic and it's just getting otter uh because I think more and more

awareness is being really um kind of put toward this difficulty that children are

having and I'll say and adults and so I've worked with children and adults uh both equally affected by some of the

symptoms of what we call ADHD which I think interestingly most people have

some sense that ADHD is about the little guy who runs around and can't sit still

and you know squirms in his chair or you know people who can't find things or get disorganized and those are some of the

common aspects but what I've learned is I can have 10 children walk in to my

clinic on a particular day and all 10 of them are going to have a different combination of struggles that they are

experiencing and within that I think that's why some of the one siiz fitall

kind of ideas aren't quite fitting very all very many it it just doesn't fit

well is what really started this journey about 15 years ago was understanding the

stories that parents were bringing in it was like you we've tried all of this nothing's had a lasting change and we

don't know what to do sure our child is struggling we're struggling the teachers are

struggling that was the theme everyone was struggling and there didn't appear to be a whole lot of winds that were

going on out there and that's really where this all started yeah yeah absolutely and so as you've started to

dig what do you see as being the trend like it seems like this is progressing right there's more and more people that

are having difficulty than ever before what do you think the reasons are for that I'm sure that's a big question

but yes it is a big question but an important one because I think there are many contributing factors one I think

our awareness certainly has improved from where we were 20 years years ago even 10 years ago we used to really

think well and I think there's a lot of it so I can't say we used to think this because I think there's still an awful

lot of it wherein this child is just willfully

misbehaving and I'm here to stay to say and really I I kind of call myself a

little bit of a myth buster on that if children could do better they would because they don't want to be in trouble

so first and foremost and adults the same way if your spouse could remember the grocery list on the way

home they would they would because they don't want to catch the Wrath when they walk in the door and forgot the milk

right let's just get clear this is not willful bad behavior on anyone's part

and that's really the starting point I think for some of the discussion also we really are I think unaware of what the

underlying root cause is for a lot of the difficulties which is is again back

to where I started 15 years ago as I started recognizing there's something else going on here we call this ADHD but

it also I'll say it walked in the door as Oppositional Defiant Disorder that

diagnosis also walked in the door as intermittent explosive disorder it walks in as trauma it walks in as anxiety it

walks in with a long long list of dsm5 diagnostic categories and the one thing

that I have seen in common when we peel all of those labels back and I'm not a labels person I have never been a labels

person in 30 years I'm not that and so when we peel those labels back we start

to look at what is really happening here we're finding that in fact there's something else going on underneath all

of these conditions and that is this thing called auditory and visual processing which is why I wrote the book

this is the message that I realized we need to start in order to change the narrative about people who are

struggling children who are struggling in school adults who are struggling this happens to people in the employment

setting I can't remember what my boss says to me and I'm going to get fired because he's really mad at me right kind

of think and I've had these exact these are all cases that I've worked with in cases I mean clients and people sure who

have shown up who have these tragic stories so far that just aren't working

right I think we have a preponderance of diagnosis of this in our world I'm not

sure that's a bad thing but I'm also not sure it's a good thing yeah so I'm kind of in between on that because I think if

it's drawing attention to the struggles that someone is having that's a good thing if we just say oh they have ADHD

there's nothing they can do about it or I can't do anything to make this any better or I'm just going to give up it's hopeless I can't change my life and

that's not such a good thing sure there's something in between there and that's where I live is the in between

phe in your yeah absolutely okay so there if the issue is primarily auditory visual processing why did that get

broken what's going on there I wish I could answer that because I've had

children as young as three who come in and we're finding this in them so clearly they don't have life experiences

necessarily that has affected this however I will say that we treat a lot of children who've come through foster

care uh some pretty rough situations and so obviously trauma is going to have an

impact on how I process information in my world right so I can be internally

really distracted and my brain can be kind of hypervigilant because of the trauma which is going to affect my

ability to really be present and take in information so we set that in the mix

we've got that anxiety depression any of those conditions and children can have some of this as well as

adults so we really want to understand that we don't necessarily at this point

know how this has happened or necessarily if something specific has

contributed to it what we can say is within 20 minutes we can figure out what it is with a computer-based assessment

20 minutes I can find it so just to speculate a little bit like so what I

kind of what I think I understand as far as the neurochemistry to some degree is that there's this disconnect between you

know what you're going to process in the prefrontal cortex versus the lyic system where you're kind of overtaken by

emotion is it like lyic hijacking is it kind of that is that your your theory or

not necessarily well I think it is for some people but it isn't for all people

because we have children and adults who haven't had any of those experiences who

are doing okay in many areas of their life but they are not doing okay in

certain areas of their life and it becomes a real struggle for them to be able to navigate um school or work and

so it isn't just one thing it is the possibility of many things and the why or the how is often asked it's like well

how did this happen to my child what did I do wrong you didn't do anything wrong no one did anything wrong here in this

case uh what has happened is these Pathways just aren't strong enough and I

equate it to I'm right-handed I cannot write left-handed

if something happened to me and I had to start writing left-handed this is going to be a big struggle this is not my

strength right is it possible that I could train myself to do this well people have done that all over the world

people have retrained their brain when they've had to this is similar we know

that training the brain has to do with repetition so I'm going to have to practice a lot I might even need a coach

to help me figure out how I'm going to write my letters so I can even sign my name legibly

if I'm trying to do it with my left hand but it doesn't mean it's impossible but I might have to work at it right so I'm

gonna have to train my brain to strengthen that particular neuronal pathway in my brain to be able to

accomplish this task but once I've learned it the good news is my brain's going to hang on to it anchor it yeah it

it does it anchors it not unlike when we have learned how to ride a bike as a

child maybe we haven't been on a bike for a number of years but we can get

back on that bike we're typically not going to need our training wheels again we're going to be able to keep

ourselves upright and not run into things hopefully but our brain is going to

remember the balancing component that's needed yeah and the physical Maneuvers

to move us forward while we're balancing we remember that the brain retrains it

and retains it so that's the piece we train these areas that are weaker once

we find them and the good news is with this process of brain training tends to

hold yeah so people don't need to keep coming back for this right oh that's

great so um one more thing before I go into the minutia of how you actually do that simply because from my world I'm

usually looking for you know the the global underlying cause so I'm wondering for those people that don't have a

trauma background and you might you might not deal with this and that's fine if you don't but I'm just curious to what extent have you seen an association

between between like gut inflammation and the neurochemistry kind of Shifting because I've seen that a lot in kids

with issues like this especially where you know the the gut brain axis connection is that something that you've

seen much I haven't seen a lot of it but it doesn't mean it isn't there in a lot

of people causing difficulties and one of the aspects of the intake is I'm

always asking those questions it's like what's your sleep what's your uh food routine what are you allergic to

uh what foods do you not engage in are there you know tell me the picture there

because I think it's all important parents are pretty Savvy these days about food

sensitivities and so they will say when the child's not in the room or maybe even there it's like oh well you know

we've decided a family just doesn't need to you know do dairy or we've decided the family just doesn't need to do

gluten whatever it might be right and so that's great because I know that they've been down that road they're looking at

the full picture sure and if someone hasn't done that then there's a conversation about well do you feel

sensitivities toward anything do you notice anything when you eat certain kinds of foods do you notice anything

when your child well you know as you m as you happen to mention this I noticed when he eats a box of cookies that

things go a little sideways yeah go a little sideways it's like okay

no that so but it sounds like from what you're doing as far as the auditory

visual retraining of the brain you don't necessarily have to to find and deal with root cause from an inflammatory

systemic standpoint it still works even if you don't go there right it really does I mean it does help when parents

are really tuned in to the whole aspect and I do encourage that right it's like

well we're going to a fast food place for breakfast every morning maybe we want to rethink you know what other

options could be available could you have something at home made that over the weekend things like that which might

help a little bit right but with the brain training we're really dealing with tackling those areas that affect the

concentration the focus the membran As We Know food can do all of that as well as medications so um sometimes um older

folks will come in with a long list I had this happen recently with a gentleman uh he detached uh his medical

records I think he came in from the VA and I was looking through some of the blood work and I will first step I am

not a position so I'm not going to make recommendations but excuse me they were

worried about his memory and as I was looking through some of the medications

that he was taking oh yeah I happened to know that some of those can affect

memory and so what I will say to people is you may want to talk to your pharmacist you may want to go on some

reputable websites right to just look at you know are there any ties to this

particularly if they've started medication and now they're reporting yeah some of these difficulties it's

like you know we may have something here I'm not sure it might be worth looking

into though sure and having those conversations so that they're informed

but I'm not directing medical care so yeah absolutely absolutely so um tell us

a little bit about how you do the audiovisual retraining is this this is part of neuro feedback

right so tell us like can you define that for our audience and then tell us how you do it sure so a lot of people

have not heard of the term neuro feedback even though it has been around for almost 50 years now so this is not

anything new in the world this was actually developed in the 1970s at UCLA

by Dr Barry sternman he was doing some work for NASA at the time and it has

evolved there's 50 years of research uh in the literature as some types of

companies like to say it's still experimental um I'm not so sure how experimental it

might still be but uh it's it's similar to biof feedback and so a lot of people

have heard the term biof feedback and biof feedback really began when we

started understanding that if we paid attention to our Mind Body Connection we

actually could have effect how our body was functioning so there were sensors that might have been placed on a finger

to measure pulse maybe measure respiration it was fed into a unit where

the person could see what's happening uh through data and then by being coached

they could maybe be coached to relax their muscles breathe differently and they could see the pulser come down so

that was like the long name of that of course is biological information feedback and for convenience became

dubbed biof feedback and so now we fast forward a few years to neuro feedback

which is the same concept we're measuring an internal process in this case brain waves so by placing a certain

type of sensor on the scalp we can literally measure your brain waves and

with that it's fed into the computer there's an algorithm running the show on the back end and for example if we have

a child who's very inattentive well we will be doing is setting up a training plan that looks like these are low

impact video games so I warned the kiddos this is not what you're used to yeah yeah I

bet so don't think you're coming in here running fortnite or whatever yeah

sure might be used to this is gonna be really low impact for you there's a reason I tell the parents later it's

like this doesn't dump dopamine into your child's brain exactly yeah so by

using the brain weight information it's a one-way system it's fed into the computer and if I can see graphs of how

my brain is working so let's say we have a green graph and a blue graph just for Simplicity we have a lot more than that

but if I'm trying to maintain a state of calmness I'm going to be measuring some of the Theta which is a calmer brain

wave and it's like can I make this little chart go up or down by how I'm paying attention to how my brain is

operating the brain will have to learn how to do this so much the same idea as

the bike to learn how to ride the bike I can tell you how to ride the bike I can show you how to ride the bike you have

to get on the bike right and same concept here your brain

will figure this out so the good news is the brain is really curious and it wants

to figure this out if we can just keep the thinking mind out of the way primarily with

adults then we can allow the brain to learn its way through this process and

as it's learning it's training itself and so it's training itself through the repetition of the programs and typically

it's 20 sessions right and then we're going to come back and rerun those initial assessments because that's the

big marker but we have the markers all the way along and as my brain gets stronger the games we call them are

getting stronger or tougher or more advanced so my brain is continuing to be

challenged through the process until we get to the kind of the area where we run

these assessments then it's like wow your attention's really changed look at this this is really gone up here and

your memory has improved we started out at 42 it's now at 85 that's pretty

good and so they get that kind of feedback as well but they are receiving feedback all the way through in their

sessions and with the clinicians and the like so that they can see the thing with

this is It's subtle so there's a cautionary Tale to folks and to parents

this is not the same as when you walk into a room and flip on a switch this is you you have a dimmer switch and so

you're just slowly kind of turning this up and strengthening till one day the lights on and you're functioning

differently right yeah that's amazing so 20 sessions over a period of how long did you say typically typically um there

are 30 sessions twice a week and then we reassess okay most people need 20 hours

which is sessions but we have the midpoint there where we're reassessing

because then there'll be a different plan created for the next phase of that to wire in and to catch any areas that

aren't quite where we want them to be for the average person there are some people who actually will get done within

the first 10 hours there are some if we're dealing with anxiety trauma uh

some very significant processing areas of weakness it can take some time

sometimes when there isn't any visual processing that we can identify or there isn't any auditory processing that so

those scores are all zero for this child or adult we're building neuronal Pathways in there yes so if we're

strengthening that's one one time frame typically if we're building then it's

going to take a little bit longer because we're literally kind of starting from the Baseline on that to get the

person to where they want to be yeah and does the time frame here have anything to do with like from the strengthening

standpoint I've heard that uh creating new habits is anywhere from 21 to 90 days is does that have anything to do

with the time frame that you're talking about it has to do with the amount of practice and repetition that's happening

and that's a bit of why that 21-day business is people get frustrated with

that because they don't see the change that fast and it's it's really about how

often were you able to remember to practice this like learning how to learn how to play the piano or something you

know I have to be at the piano quite a bit you know to do it so it's it's

really the consistency is what I say so if someone on their own is really trying

to break a bad habit like not eating that box of cookies they have to do something else

right to really either distract themselves or train themselves to like something better that takes time and

what will happen with these bad habits is that it does prune itself away in the brain so that's the beauty of this is I

actually have seen these clips of these neuronal connections being made and then I have seen clips of where these

neuronal Pathways actually disengage and so this is where the brain changes in

both cases so we can affect change and this this really is grounded in the

scientific knowledge of neuroplasticity which is our brain is capable of changing all the way through

our life and that's that actually came out in 1949 by Dr Donald hee who was a

Canadian psychologist and it's taken a while for it to really um get some you

know footwork in in the world yeah but how encouraging that we're not just

doomed to have this diagnosis forever right we're not we're not that's the

that's why I call myself a little bit of a mythbuster yeah that's wonderful very

cool so and are there any other Hol IC um approaches to ADHD especially that

you use adjunctively with this in particular well certainly the diet and

paying attention to that um monitoring the amount of video time is a big one

that we have a conversation about bet yeah yeah we've treated children who were seriously addicted to video games

to the point that as the parents started to dial back uh this child has had gone

berserk in the house and destroyed areas of the house destroyed the father's work

computer it can get very very serious if children are seriously addicted to these dopamine dumps right um in the brain and

this actually was written about in 1999 with research that was out about

the addictive potential of these video games and I'm thinking that's 25 years

ago and we're still pushing these games out to children games and Tik Tok and

like all these videos that are there all of this it trains the brain so whenever

we watch anything we're training our brain and I think parents don't quite and a lot of us don't quite I didn't

know until I really did a lot of research on over the last 15 years anything we watch is being recorded in

the brain it's there yeah and so you know they say garbage in garbage out and

you have to really monitor you what your brain is feasting on day to day and I

really talked to parents about that it's like get outside you know let's go outside if you can you

know cut off the video games and go out in the backyard or go to the park or do something like that where you're getting

some physical activity that's really important so diet exercise um sleep is a

big piece of this and as well as hydration so we talk about you know what are you drinking all day long and some

of those conversations but as well as tips for parents and teachers for once

we identify what is happening here here how do I interact with my child the

parents and the teachers will say and so we've got strategies for that while the child is going through or the adult is

going through the process of strengthening those Notions so we really tackle this from many many

angles and so given all of this you know holistic approach where do you feel like

medication for ADHD fits into this or does it well it's a very big mixed bag for me

uh my book I'm pretty clear I could write my book and I could say what I needed to there absolutely

you know it's important to understand that sometimes medication can be helpful

what I really came to understand at the front end of all of this is that most parents who children are on medication

they've been down that road and the folks that have shown up in my clinics that hasn't worked well for them for

whatever reason and it could be that there are a lot of people out there for whom this has been a blessing and it's

working really well for them and I can't speak to that I speak to those parents and adults who have come in they've been

down the road of variations of medications it works for a while it wears off or we give the medication in

the morning to get him through school or her through school they're home afterwards and just the Tantrums break

out all the you know because they had to contain themselves so much at school just just to try to get through the day

and then there's them backlash for the rest of the day and into the night or

the weekends and such or they won't give the medication over the weekend or they take the child off of it in the summer

and there's there are some deep concerns about some of these medications and I've been pretty clear about that in the book

with all the research that's out there everything in my book is researched and referenced so anyone can go find the

original thought and piece there if you want to to really understand what's happening with these meds definitely on

the same page with you there so it seems like I mean all of these psych meds if you didn't have a neurotransmitter imbalance before you do now because

they're creating them so that's where side effects are coming from your body's going to compensate so and then you

eventually they'll stop working you have to increase the tose it's all of that absolutely for sure it is all of that

and that's really what drives the addiction on the video gaming which as what's so interesting is if these games

are designed to do dopamine dumps which they are then the more a child or an adult I have

dads who are struggling as much as their children are in some cases this is the

brain then needing more and more of the fix of the dopamine and the more that it gets from these external dumps that get

created the less the brain is going to make of its own which then starts the

difficulty of when you try to come off of these games because now there is a withdrawal process for this and it's

going to take the brain a while to start reproducing the amount of dopamine that

it really was capable of producing before it had these big um dumps of it

that were artificially raising the amount of dopamine in the brain yeah absolutely so can you tell us maybe one

or two or a couple of stories of people that have kind of had a transformation in this

process love to I always think of one young man early on I have two of them

actually but this young man he was a teenager and his dad called me one day

knowing that I had started this Clinic here in Southern California I knew the dad and he said his son um had been in

special education he was in high school but he had been in special ad most of his academic career and that the day

before his son was sitting in the library at the high school and was really

bored and decided to hack the school's computers system to change a

grade oh no wow so um sarily of course there were

some very big repercussions and then when his dad brought him in he was a

very very angry teenage boy very angry H we did manage to get him through the

assessment he was willing to do that he would follow his father's instructions uh fairly well so there was still some

respect there and willing us to kind of do what the father was asking the parents were divorced um so that was

probably the stting grace is that the father still had enough connection there to he may have been dragging him in

literally by the collar but he did get them he got him in the door yeah and so we assessed him and he certainly was by

no far had the biggest impact of uh findings but he had some significant

impacts in his life where it was very difficult for him to demonstrate his extreme know knowled and skill set

because he couldn't perform in the ways the school was traditionally assessing

children so he couldn't demonstrate this and he was so angry because of the

failures that he had encountered he was fighting with his peers all the time he

would get inv fights on the school bus get invits and other situations and so

we did about 20 hours of neuro feedback training with him and all of that went

away he started doing really well he was moved to a different

School understandably so see that and the next the next year he scored the

highest in the school's history on the state math exam oh that's awesome how

cool and he used to joke about being the poster child for special ed oh bless his

heart that's so great very cool yes and I was doing a presentation to

one of his parents support groups one night and he was there and I was having some tech problems and I looked at him and I said can you help me with this

well sure of course right so he was helping me with that and

I thought you know I wonder I just looked at him and I said would you like to speak about your experience he goes

he looked at me it didn't take him a split second and he said yes I would and he literally got up there stood next to

me in front of this room full of parents parents on the front row and he just

said let me tell you what my life was like before neuro beback and he described being angry being and fights

all the time and then he said a line that just sent the chills to everyone in the audience and he said had it not been

for this intervention he would have either killed himself or something else wow geez well that's it was it the room

you could hear a pin drop yeah and then he followed up and he said now let me tell you what my life is

after oh that's so great he went on to say you know about the state exam so

yeah that's one I have hundreds of these stories and another one was a little girl um just as precious as she could be

and I actually had been out in the community doing a presentation to parents and it was kind

of a reading thing in the community and it was my second presentation of the day and I saw this little girl little blonde

here BL little sweet looking little girl maybe six or seven she came to the front

of the room and sat at the front of the room she was accompanied by her grandmother who sat at the back of the

room and so I actually was doing some demonstrations and I had at those times

I could use a laptop I still have the capability of doing this and I had a little headset that would measure brain waves and it just sat on the Forefront

of the brain measuring brain waves from kind of the front here and I had I usually gave the kid I was a CH to give

it a try and they could either blow up a barrel if they could attend well or they could float a ball if they were in a

calm brain state so i' had two or three of the little kiddos come through and it was you know maybe 10 minutes before I

was ready to end it was getting close to the end and this little girl spoke up saying that she wanted to do it I was

like oh okay so I hooked her up nothing could happen she couldn't do anything

with either one of these she couldn't get it to go and she was sitting there and and I gave her several minutes I'm

thinking oh tough you know I said well how about if we you know kind of move on

no she said no I know I can do this I know I can do it and so I thought well

we're gonna let her go here and pretty soon she actually got enough attention going that she could blow up the barrel

and the entire room applauded they all applauded her several months later her

grandmother showed up with her in toe and then I got the backstory okay on this little girl the mother the

grandmother was now a custodian she had been abused in early childhood um she

had severe ADHD to the standpoint that in kindergarten she her kindergarten

teacher told her she was going to quit teaching because of her why would you say that to a

child so this was how this little girl presented I'm not going into the other details that the little girl shared with

me that day but it was one of those moments as a psychologist that it's a good thing I can have a pretty straight

you know not shocked face but the details were um significant uh for her

and so we started doing the neuro feedback with her and uh we did I think we did at least 40 sessions with her 20

hours and the grandmother wrote to me she wrote an email she says I just want you to know because this girl would have

temper tantrums she was on medication it would wear off she'd come home and the grandmother described these temper

tantrums as cataclysmic events daily

so they she was inconsolable when this would happen and it could go on for quite a long time and so they went on

vacation after we kind of finished her plan and the grandmother wrote me an email she goes oh my gosh she said I had

forgotten her medication when we went on vacation once I discovered this I nearly

had a panic she had a panic she herself she said our vacation's going to be ruined because she's gonna just have

these meltdowns and she said there wasn't a single meltdown the entire time she was on no medication everyone had a

pleasant time and she said do you think she needs the medication anymore and I said I would go have a

conversation with your physician about that oh how awesome very cool yes what

have I not asked you that you want to make sure you leave with our audience well I really believe that it's

about understanding the neuroplasticity which we talked a little bit about but knowing that we have so much hope around

this and that's really the message I like to talk about I think if parents are struggling with their children one

of the key factors here is I know some parents engage in some punishment or withdrawal kind of behaviors or or those

types of activities with children who are quote misbehaving and one of the telltale signs about all of this is if

those interventions are not yielding long-term lasting results something isn't working and so the wrong approach

isn't going to lead to the right outcome yeah and that's the key here the wrong diagnosis isn't going to lead to the

right intervention right so you really need to know what you're dealing with and as M I come from 25 years of

teaching my mother taught second grade for 32 years in the same classroom my aunt was a dean of a College of

Education aunts and uncles were teachers and professors so I understand the teaching world but I will say that we

don't really understand what's Happening Here With Children and embarrassing children or you know

doing anything that you think it's going to motivate them from that standpoint isn't going to do it for these children

if they could do better they would be they're not seeking punishment in a daily basis this isn't about the adults

right this is about this child and the behaviors are a signal their language to

be decoded and if we can get this in the right you know lineup here so to speak I

think we're so driven to get rid of the behaviors the behaviors are telling us something and so we can use this as kind

of an investigation it's like well what happens when I do this what happens at school what was the instruction how was

it delivered what was the result that may give you some insight into what this

is and up on my website I do offer a free brief assessment that people can

access there can also sign up for my newsletter you get the first three chapters of the book for free for that

and I promise I'm not going to Pummel your email box with lots of new letters

but it's a way to kind of get in the door with this because in the book I have specific chapters on auditory

processing with a long checklist of potential behaviors the same with Visual and then there are children who actually

have both of these and they're a combination and it's sometimes very difficult to kind of figure out what's

what's really causing the difficulty here um um but if we can understand those behaviors a little bit more we

actually have a a better shot at giving the right support in the classroom and

at home yeah that makes sense so you kind of alluded to it but if people want

to find out more about you your book your clinics where do they go it's all up on my website which is www my name

Connie c n ni IE MC Reynolds MC y n o l

ds.com uh you can sign up there the link to the book is actually on the front page there are testimonials um there are

also research articles that I've published on ADHD and on PTSD so those

are up there for those who need a snore at night EXC but there are some interesting

graphs so people might like the pictures depends on what you're drawn to and in the book there are a lot of examples of

um situations where children have come in and then what we've done and I really wrote the book uh for parents and

teachers but it applies to all ages so our youngest has been three and our oldest have been 93 awesome tackle

everyone in between yeah very cool that's great well thank you so much Dr MC Reynolds this is really inspiring

thank you for sharing it thank you so much for inviting me today it's been a pleasure to be here

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