The Fourth Phase of Water - Dr Gerald Pollack

welcome back to another episode of Christian Natural Health today I'm very excited to have Dr Gerald Pollock with

us Dr Pollock maintains an active laboratory at the University of Washington in Seattle he is the founding

editorinchief of water a multi-disciplinary research Journal executive director of The Institute for

Venture science co-founder of the fourth phase Incorporated and founder of the annual conference on the physics

chemistry and biology of water he has received numerous honors including the Progene how do you pronounce that metal

you got it is that about right metal for thermodynamics the University of Washington annual faculty lecturer and

the NIH director's transformative research award and he has has the first Emoto Peace Prize he is recognized

internationally as an accomplished speaker and author welcome Jerry so thank you so much for coming oh I'm just

delighted thrilled to be there with you thank you thank you so I've read several

of your books first for those who might not be familiar can you give us a quick description of what easyier exclusion

water uh exclusion Zone water is uh a quick description uh I know that's hard

how to make it a quick description it's a kind of water uh that's unlike liquid

water in liquid water the water molecules are randomly oriented and

they're bouncing around a fierce number of times per second or uh per

ftoc uh easy water is a kind of you might say structured water

that term was originated by I think by Gilbert Ling and others who was a

Pioneer in the field and and it's it's a it's actually a water that is liquid

crystal in in other words the molecules are organized in some some way like

soldiers at attention so that's what just in in general that that's what

we're talking about when we're talking about easy water or for fourth phase what the two are the same right okay and

so how's there why is there a charge separation I know you talk a lot about that the idea that the the the protons

and the the actual EZ is negatively charged and then the rest is not can you

explain that a little bit yeah um yeah it happens um it it's Perhaps Perhaps

the most important feature um uh because you know if you have charges that are

separated like that you have a battery and and and that battery is capable of

delivering energy and we've demonstrated it we have proof of principle that it actually can do that um um so the way

the way it forms is um in in in general there are several ways in forms but one

of the principal ways the way we we saw first is that we we take um a a gel U

and we immerse it into a bath of water and in the water we have little

particles and and the idea uh that we started with was was that uh if if the

if there's a region of uh water that is like a liquid Crystal Liquid Crystal is

a bit like like ice except that ice is hard and occurs at low temperature but

but everything is organized and if it's organized like a crystal crystals tend to

exclude uh pretty much everything otherwise they would be pure crystals um you know if they had impurities in it so

yeah as the crystals are forming they get rid of I'm sorry you have a question no keep going yeah they get rid of the

impurities so so we were looking in the microscope to try to find um a region uh

where the the particles or we use little spheres microspheres where they were

excluded and we found it right away it was right immediately adjacent um to the

gel surface and then we tried different gels and we tried different materials and we found that this was a generality

that we could find next to the surfaces if the surfaces were hydrophilic which most are that is water

loving right next to it we could find a region where all the microspheres were

excluded and and we took videos and we could see the region growing and growing

as though um a a region of order was

started very small the original um water uh was transformed into something

different uh something ordered something that excluded uh the Spheres um and and

we found that in extreme circumstances we we could actually see this region

growing to as as much as a millimeter uh you know you can see with your naked eye

you don't even need a microscope for that but typically it was um maybe a

third of a millimeter or something like that we could see it growing so we we

later uh we we made measurements of of the water in that in that region we

called it exclusion Zone because it excluded that was that was maybe a mistake uh

because well it's more than just exclud exclusion is just one of many properties there are so many properties of this

water all of which uh we found from the properties of ordinary liquid water so the region

grows and and we decided to u to stick uh electrodes in that region to check

out the electrical charge and we were frankly astonished to find that it was

negatively charged H2O is not negatively charged but this was negatively charged

so so it means that that the original H2O liquid water had undergone some sort

of transformation in into this special structure which which uh we we later uh

found out consisted of hexagonal honeycomb sheets one sheet stacked upon

another and it had negative charge net negative charge so you know because it

has net negative charge it can't be H2O because H2O is is neutral it's actually

h302 which which has a a negative charge and then we found that um that right

next to this region of negative charge was positive charge when you think about it you must have that because you

started with water which is neutral and so somehow the products of that still

must add up to neutrality so so we we we wind up with a

a liquid crystallin uh heck honeycomb sheet like

structure which many many sheets uh stack upon one another with negative

charge and beyond that it's positive charge and one of the questions I'm

gonna answer uh uh very few people ever ask but this is

a critical question please you you you will know it instantly so if you have

negative charge and positive charge what do they want to do they want to combine

annihilate one another so how is it what I presented to you is that the EZ or

fourth phase as negative charge and right next to it or Beyond it is positive charge everybody would expect

yeah what keeps them apart well what keeps them apart is is the um the

honeycomb nature of the EZ layers so it consists of a whole bunch of hexagons

and those hexagons are so small uh that the positive charge which consists of

hydronium ions that is prot latched onto water molecules or so-called positively

charged water can't get in um the the holes are just too small right so they

stay out and therefore therefore the negative charge of the easy and the positive charge beyond the easy remain

separated so you have a battery wow so okay delving a little bit into the idea

of the batteries so you plugged in these electrodes what kind of a charge differential do you actually get for

that from that well we we measure it in molts and uh I I I could say that tip typical

potential difference is maybe 50 or 100 molts but it it varies if you're very

close to uh the gel or other nucleating surface it typically is like 200 Mill

volts negative and as you move away from that surface toward the region of the positive charges it um the potential

difference begins to diminish um and it goes toward toward zero and then you got the

positive charge Beyond got it so if somebody wanted to like build one of these in their backyard kind of a thing

would you have somebody wanted to build this in a backyard um would you have a

something to just keep those electrodes in place and then could you just hook it up to a light bulb or something or is there something fancy that you'd need to

do in order to work we've done exactly that ex have we didn't do it in the back yard we

did but you can do it in the backyard it works equally well yeah and um often

when I give presentations I I show a slide of that result and what you do is

you stick one electrode in the negative Zone one electrode in the positive Zone connect that to um well an LED we don't

use a conventional light bulb but and you flip a switch so that you make the

connection and you can see the light shining so yeah I mean this is for me this is um

it's astonishing because because it's a previously

unrecognized uh source of energy exactly it comes from water and what I didn't tell you but um you know because you've

read the books it comes the you can't create energy out of nothing all you can do is transform energy from one kind of

energy to another so in order to create this battery you you need to have some kind of input energy and we found

actually we didn't find it it was a student in the laboratory a young undergraduate student who who was doing

what he wasn't supposed to do shined a lamp on the chamber and and he the

region that was illuminated the exclusion Zone grew uh grew hugely yeah

so he called me in and you know and i' I'd been trying to think of where does

the energy come from because I knew that there had to be a source of energy you can't exactly plug the the experimental

chamber in into a receptacle on the wall and and

get you know I I I was scratching my head so much trying to figure out that I lost

all my hair and there and and there was this young undergraduate student who you know

Was Naive yeah and he got it he got it so so it turned out um light was

responsible well just like photosynthesis you know step one in photosynthesis um is light impinges on

the plant and the charges are separated the plus and minus charges in water are

separated step one 100% efficient and what I'm telling you is is something

very similar and and in fact we think that we we found a kind of generic

phenomenon of which photosynthesis is probably the Premier

uh demonstration or exponent of that because nature does something really really well yeah what what they haven't

figured out what I at least I've never seen them figure out is is why the plus and minus charges don't recombine

instantly what we talked about a moment ago because they should nobody as far as

I've seen nobody has ever addressed the question of what keeps the charges apart but I think maybe if the

photosynthetic mechanism is simp similar to what we've we found the first step in

photosynthesis I mean uh then then the explanation should be should be the same

and it's it's the uh easy Waters hexagonal uh honeycomb sheets that don't

allow the the positive hydronium ions to enter back in but anyway this so the

student found that light did it and and um you know after we could see his

demonstration we decided it's really important to do some genuine experiments and so so we uh we we examin the a wide

spectrum of different wavelengths or colors uh ranging from at the short

wavelength ultraviolet uh through the visible spectrum from Violet to red and then

beyond that longer wavelengths infrared most of the wavelengths didn't do anything not being

uh and finally we saw that the infrared was hugely powerful we found that uh

very modest amounts of infrared light could could spectacularly uh build

exclusion zones and we we could actually amplify an exclusion Zone by in size by a factor of 10 using very very modest um

sources of infrared energy so the bottom line is yeah you need energy to create

this battery and the energy at least one form of energy comes uh uh from infrared

light right which is all around us if you know a lot of people a lot of people

don't know much about uh infrared energy but U um you know they

think if you if you got a toaster and you push down and you can see the

glowing orange coils U that you know that must be radiant energy or infrar

energy but actually it's not that and that's correct but it's not just that

everything is generating infrared energy so if you for example in in the room uh

that you're in right now your office or whatever if you were to turn off all the lights uh so that pitch dark you can't

see anything uh your your cell phone camera can't record anything it's just

absolutely black if you whipped out a an infrared camera that is

like a regular camera except that the sensor sensitive to infrared not instead

of visible light if you had one of these cameras and the room is totally dark you get a beautiful image of everything

around you including that clock that sits on the wall and the bookshelves on the other side um because it's all

generating infrared energy which means which means that that it's all around us

all the time and that's that's for example why military people use it at nighttime um

because they can see the enemy they can see the tanks they can see the guns they can see everything with an infrared

camera so the energy that's required for building easy is there it's all around

us so we've got this ready Source we've got the water and we've got constant

infrared energy all around us and also from the Sun is anybody trying to tap into this like at a larger scale uh well

we're looking to to do this you know our our our Laboratory um is um we we do

fundamental research right of course we don't we except for a brief foray into

um um into a venture commercial Venture that one of

my students convinced me that we need to we need to go there I was against it but

he said oh you you you don't have to do anything I'll do everything and it didn't turn out that way

anyway gotta we did make some progress on on one of the devices that came out

of our research but for uh various reasons like uh people people who um um

uh two people on the board who couldn't get along with one another I tried to mediate but unsuccessfully the company

unfortunately U uh went defunct we're making great progress anyway uh uh yeah

so so so so we focus on the fundamentals um I I have this compelling desire to

find out how nature really works and it it's it's beyond um Beyond biology

biology is of course the main one of the main aspects but but the work that we do

extends Beyond so I don't sort of like to be distracted uh by by uh engineering

development but I hope others will or or do yeah and what you're talking about

about getting electricity from Light and Water it's it's just you know it's so

natural um and nature nature does things usually in the best way possible so I

I'm optimistic that if some if some company U wants to pursue this it should

be possible and some still some fundamental research need needs to be

done about some aspects and we would be uh willing to do that in the laboratory

the you know studying the fundamentals but not the commercial development course

course we need money yeah I imagine and those those two areas that it's it's so

often that the scientific research on the ground doesn't translate to industry very quickly no it doesn't there there's

so-called Valley of Death yeah Valley and you have to get over

that Valley to make it for sure so and then from a biology standpoint as you

alluded to so our cells are what 70% water something like that right well yeah it depends on the cell and also

depends on your age sure yeah when you reach my age it's a little bit less

maybe right but regardless so what are the implications from a health standpoint for easy Water Well thank

thanks for asking um the implications are Central um so first of all our cells

are filled with easy water um our cells are not filled with liquid water and and

the way the simplest way that you can demonstrate that if you're brave enough take a sharp razor blade and and cut so

you cut yourself and if the cells were made of liquid water the water would come pouring out as it would from a

breached water pipe it doesn't happen uh what the blood comes out for sure but

the water doesn't and amplifying that is a a word from several surgeons who told

me you know they they'll cut deeply that for example they'll cut right through a muscle deep deep in inside and the water

doesn't come out it stays in so it's not liquid water it's um it it's a water

that's viscous gel-like and it sticks inside the cell and we understand that

because inside the cell are lots of solids with hydrophilic surfaces and the

water easy water sticks to those surfaces so it doesn't come out so the water in your cell is not liquid water

uh it it's um EZ water fourth phase water or so-called structured water um

so U that that's one thing now if that's true and I evidence uh suggest that that

it's true um then then um the the uh generally accepted view that the

negative charge inside the cell negative electrical potential the The View that you read in the textbook is this has to

do with membrane pumps and channels that allow various ions to go in and go out

it's complicated story and I think it's wrong um and um the evidence that it's

wrong I've published a paper and it in uh one or two of my of my books but I I

can simply say what one thing just that that's highly highly relevant um and

that is that is um if if the the the cytoplasm of the cell is pretty much

like a gel that's well established um and um it turns out that if you stick an

electrode into the gel uh no membrane no pumps no channels you get the same

electrical potential as you would in the cell very similar that's been shown in

various Laboratories including our own so if that's true then there are no

membranes no pumps no membrane nothing but still you get the same result it's hard to argue that you know that that

this potential comes from activity in the membrane since there's no membrane yeah that's just one argument of of many

um so so so the electrical potential comes from uh I'm sorry you you're about

to ask a question or is it just a no I was I'm I'm trying to picture so as you

described before there's the separation of the easy and the bulk water inside the cell it's all structured where's the

bulk water is there any uh well in yes and no let let me explain in in a

healthy cell like for example a muscle cell that contracts very well right um

the water inside the cell is all easy water giving you a negative charge okay

uh but what happens as I describe in the sales and gels Book Sales gels the

engines of Life 2001 um the water undergoes a transition it's the water

and the proteins undergo a transition so-called phase transition phenomenon well understood in physical chemistry

and and the water uh changes from from the easy or fourth phase water to

ordinary liquid water okay yeah and then back again after in a muscle C say after the

contraction ction is over um and and so when you ask the

question is the water inside the cell all EZ water yes and no depends so in a

muscle cell if the muscle cell is relaxed then it's all easz water a healthy muscle cell so the water under

goes a transition with the proteins uh to to fold proteins are folded and the

the water then um uh becomes liquid water and that that's that's the cell

doing what it's designed to do and when it's all over it the situation returns

to the initial State the water becomes ordered again and the proteins uh undergo or occupy their extended state

that's in a word that's the action of the cell right it's so elegant so one

thing that you I think you described either in that book or possibly the other one is that there's two different ways in which energy is stored it's this

it's the separ a and it's also the charge right am I getting okay yes you are exactly so okay so ATP B's energy

currency that ends up happening as a result of some of the phase change like how does one convert into the other um

okay well I you know I I um I'm reluctant to be extremely controversial

but but I have to tell you um um so um

there there's a fact that or that you you may not be aware of and I think your

listeners or viewers might not be aware of so it was I don't 80 years ago or

something like that that the idea came that ATP molecule had a high energy

phosphate Bond everybody was excited about that because finally finally the

source of energy could be found okay A year later and um if you

want to find out about this what I'm going to tell you just look on Gilbert Ling's website though he passed the

website is still ongoing it's gilbert.org and there he describes that a year later

a different group of physical chemists wrote a paper saying these guys are

wrong uh they made a mistake a simple arithmetic error there is no such thing as a high energy phosphate Bond well

since that time nobody has followed up okay so the bottom line is that we don't

know which group is right is it the first group uh that came up with the original idea of a high energy phosphate

Bond or is it second group who said it it's all nuts there's no such thing as a

high energy phosphate Bond so I guess in truth we don't know uh whether what you

stated as you know everybody believes it as a fact it whether it's true or not

true is not clear because nobody has followed up um to to check to see which

one is correct and so anybody who's seriously interested in that you know look at

Gilbert Ling's website get the reference and and read it and you know draw your own opinion so to bottom line is maybe

high energy phosphate Bond and ATP is responsible for all the action and if so

I have a hard time U um going from what I told you about the evidence for action

to ATP on the other hand okay if it's not correct then we're talking about energy

coming from charge separation or charge concentration so if the cell the cell is

full of negative charge um and um and that negative charge each of those

negative charges repels all the others and they want to get as far away as possible from one

another and that is potential energy the fact that yeah all these charges

negative charges are are squeezed together and they want to get away from each other and the getting away from

each other is is the energy that drives it wow so that's a whole Frontier study

that just sort of hasn't been absolutely yeah absolutely okay it would you know

there there is the possibility if it turns out that the ATP story is not correct there's a possibility that

pretty much everything in our body is run by electricity wow not chemicals that's

fascinating for sure so okay so as far as the more easy that you have in a Cell

the healthier you are is that is that an accurate statement sort of yes and I can and the the the reason is that you need

all this negative charge to convert um in to undergo the phase transition right

and if you have if your if your sale is deficient and easy then it it can't do

what it's what it's supposed to do and then the cell is dysfunctional or even pathological and and the remedy to that

is to try to build rebuild the easy water to bring the cell back to health

so what are some of the so it sounds like sunlight is definitely a good way and probably infrared sauna right both

of those are absolutely good ways yeah one is another way is drink a lot of water another way is to do juicing

squeeze uh squeeze um the freshly grown leaves to extract the liquid which is

essentially the intracellular water in those plants filled with EZ so you're

you're drinking uh the EZ directly and yet when it goes through your digestion it's not like it gets

disassembled and has to get reassembled you absorb it just as is already yeah

let let me explain there there are two two things that are relevant here the first is that yeah the stomach acid is

highly acidic and ought to neutralize uh the water that you drink

on the other hand the amount of acidic water the volume is very small um and

and so if you drink full glass of water that small amount of stomach acid shouldn't result in very much

neutralization that's the first thing the second is what I really think is going on um is is that soon as you eat

the food um the food is is essentially life either plant life or animal life

which is which has a lot of easy water in it um and and that's negatively

charged and so as soon as you you eat the food those negative charges uh will flow to any place in your body where

there are fewer negative charges you know the electrons are going to flow downhill so I think the electrons are

extracted and the evidence for this is maybe you have this experience that you're tired run down all you want to do

is go to sleep already you feel energized this is is the experience of you know of many

people a little bit of food quickly quickly gives you Renewed Energy so how

does it do it well I think possibility exists that it's simply that the electrons from the food are

extracted and and and and used basically to rebuild easy water in your cell we

know we know that passing electrons into the cell builds easy water we've done

experiments you know taking ordinary liquid water and you put two electrodes

in and next to the negative electrode easy builds so all you all you need to do is is put electrons in yeah you don't

even need the nucleating surface that I was talking about just putting negative charge in liquid water creates easy

water so that makes me think of things like earthing and I think that's what happens when you I'm sorry sorry oh I

was gonna say that that makes me think of things like Earth grounding and being like near a waterfall where you're

exposed to negatively charged you know particles in the air all of that helps build it as well is that true all of the

above yes the above absolutely wow so you got a a wide range and also I I

would mention this is maybe less simple than all of those other

expedients but but um hyperbaric oxygen therapy um we were curious about it

because a former postto of mine reported to me he was working for a hyperbaric

oxygen uh company and he said you know it's not just um wounds that are healed

uh by hyperbaric oxygen therapy that was it was used originally for that but he

told me there are 29 different syndromes uh that are helped uh if you get into a

hyperbaric oxygen chamber and so we wondered I you

know whether hyperbaric oxygen might build EZ that was you know a simple

hypothesis because if so we're talking about easy throughout the body it doesn't matter where or what the problem

is and we confirm that um High oxygen builds easy water high pressure builds

easy water so you put the two together and it powerfully builds easy water and

and I think that that's another expedient it's not as simple um you know because you need a hyper oxygen therapy

chamber in order to get yeah yeah but effective in doing that and I think

that's a reason why those chambers are so effective right well and this also

seems to imply at least one of the possible reasons why oxidative stressors are a problem because they're going to

strip away some of the electrons right is that part of the underly right right exact what about EMF is that has that

been studied at all for this well um yeah it's been it's been studied by um

number of uh people um we actually we actually did some experiments uh we we

put a router um Wi-Fi router next to a chamber where we have had easy and and

the student found that when he turned on the Wi-Fi it diminished the size of the EZ a technical problem the student

graduated I haven't been able to track the student or find him so oh no we haven't published but there's um

another group who wants to repeat the experiments um and I hope they do um a

group I think of Germans because they asked me for all the protocols and such and so I hope and then um there's the

the book The Invisible Rainbow by Arthur fenberg you you know you not even know

the book I haven't read it but I know what it is yeah well it's it's it's practically encyclopedic um um

demonstrating uh that that that every time every time a a a new advance in

electrical energy and communication whatever uh came into being there was always a pandemic that followed for a

year or two after oh yes I think I have heard that uhuh amazing and you know his evidence as I said is encyclopedic um

you almost almost wish okay enough evidence you convince me but there's more and more and more so that book is

really a uh a tremendous contribution into

understanding and so I'm sitting here with a laptop on on my lap not knowing exactly the impact but u

i I also have a a cloth that is is said to um ameliorate the effects or absorb

the energy and whether it works I'm not sure but I'm trusting that it might you got to do yeah absolutely makes sense um

so sort of speaking of water what is your opinion of the hydrogen water phenomenon does that contribute to this

at all uh I I have no comment on that because I haven't followed it or studied

it okay yeah it it seemed to me that it should make things worse based on this Theory but well yeah again uh no comment

because fair enough yeah absolutely so uh let's see and then you also said

ultrasound is another way that you can build easy water as well or agitation in general right like

blending uh yeah you you can um um you you can do that ultrasound you know we

we tried ultrasound um did did some experiments in which we applied ultrasound it's it's h the same

frequency as used for Imaging ultrasound imaging right uh and and um and so what

we found series of experiments is you turn on the ultrasound and first easy

diminishes then turn off the ultrasound and easy builds up and builds to much

higher uh SI much larger size than existed initially and eventually after

goodly amount of time it returns to the original so it seems except except for the the

the brief period of time that it was on the after effect is to build easy water

and we haven't started anymore we don't know whether um whether um it's pure easy water or

whether it might be that bubbles formed and they have EZ shells and and they

actually added to the existing EZ which made the EZ look bigger we're still not

sure that got it interesting that brings up another question I had just on kind

of the way that within bulk water you say that this is constantly um there's

there's how did you phrase it that that there's almost like cells or structures within bulk water you know the the the

uh reflection of water that you can see where you can see the patterns in it do you know what I'm talking about am I phrasing this poorly no you're phrasing

very well but I'm please so what I'm wondering about is how does it happen when there's no surface to trigger the

arrangement of the EZ why does it happen spontaneously in like the ocean for example well you we we did experiments

and we found that if you apply say an electric field yield um to um uh um to

some some water and you know there is an electric field around the earth so the Earth is

negative as you pointed out but up in in in the ionosphere is positive which

means it's like a capacitor where you have positive charge up there negative charge down here and if you have a

capacitor then you have electric field lines going from plus to minus going in

this direction that is perpendicular to the surface of the earth and uh we did

experiments and published them several years ago showing that that um some

frequencies of electric field build easy water and we don't know

why that's the case some and some frequencies don't but we found that some some do so so that that's one feature

that um possibly you know we see easy water in the ocean and um um this could

be one reason H why we see it I'm not sure of of other reasons but one thing

you know that I've been I've been thinking about I'm sorry for going on

beyond your question well you know from from space

the earth looks blue right water's blue but water has no

color right no I wondered about that too yeah well easy water does have color

because easy easy water fluoresence and the fluoresence and we reported that easy fluoresence the color

depends on what kind of light is Illuminating the re region of Interest

it depends which wavelength of light so you can get different fluorescent colors and I I I think that's the reason um why

uh not only why why the ocean is blue why you can see it blue because the ocean contains lots of easy water

but also you know you see pictures of tropical areas and the water looks blue

or blue green or something like that and the usual explanation is minerals uh but

you know if you put modest amount of mineral salts and water you don't get any color and U so U I think it's the

fluoresence of the easy water that's creating these colors and maybe I don't

know you don't where you live there are not too many glaciers

but if you I I was just in um in U Europe in the Alps just last week uh

there were a couple of conferences nearby and I stopped off and and um I could see a a a lake uh with a green

blue green blue green color and the lake was created by melting Glacier uh just

just behind it um and we know that if you start with ice as an the glacier and

the ice melts it melts not directly into EZ water but uh in into liquid water but

EZ water first so ice to easy water to

liquid water and if you want to freeze it it's exactly the opposite it's ordinary water to easy water and then to

ice so it means that a glacier that's melted either into into a river or into

a a pond or a lake is going to have color to it because because of the

fluoresence and and that's I think why I found a regular basis that in every

country that I've seen this uh Austria Switzerland Canada that when the ice

melts from a glacier the river that's created is green oh that's amazing very

cool so um another kind of side note on this one of the things that I've noticed in practice recently is that for some of

my hyper sensitive cases and I'll get to how this relates in a second for the people that are really really toxic one

of the very first things I have to do is flush their lymphatic system so the extracellular fluid before I start

trying to detox the cells so when I read your book one of my thoughts was because there's there's for most people that

seems to work really well there's a few people that just don't seem to budge even with that and so I started to

wonder if there's a way we can build up the E is that what really is is is lacking like we need to have more fluid

in order to flush out all the toxins any comments on that or thoughts on that well yeah I I do have comments so um you

know no nobody nobody really has understood what makes the lymphatic

vessels flow um right and and uh and I I I think we we found an answer an answer

not only to lymphatics but to veins and arteries and other vessels in our in our

body um and um so may I take a couple minutes to

describe yeah yeah well so we found in the laboratory uh we found something

again another undergraduate uh you know who I guess didn't really know the

importance of what he was studying U uh one day he came barging into my office I

was sitting with somebody and you know he he uh usually I leave my my door

slightly a jar because when people want to come in or students or whatever um I

want to welcome them and but usually they're polite and you know they'll they'll U Edge the door slightly uh more

open are you busy can I you know some some polite he didn't do that he just pushed open the door and I was sitting

sitting with a visitor and the visitor was maybe not so interesting and so I

was very happy that he came in to interrupt the the discussion he said I

found something that you know is interesting and I wanted to share it with you so okay what did you find

that's interesting uh he said well I immersed these tubes um made of a

material called naphon into into um a chamber in a horizontal fashion I just

put it in the chamber and and Flo went through through the tube never

ending and um I thought if he's right this is pretty interesting because in

order to produce that flow you need an energy you need like a pressure gradient

you know sort of like in your cardiovascular system the heart is generating pressure to sended through

the large vessels U so I I was thinking

uh uh that that uh th this this actually

substantiates what we had found just earlier that infrared energy I was being

absorbed by water and could confer in somehow could confer

energy you know and and he demonstrated that that was that was the case so I I

was really excited about it we confirmed we wrote several papers on it and we we

kind of understand the mechanism that in inside inside the vessel or at least one

mechanism there may be others um inside inside the vessel an EZ grows an annular

ez with negative charge and the positive charge sits right at at the core in the

center and those positive charges repel each other and they're free they're free

hydronium ions and they're going to exit at one end or the other end deping on various factors so so that and and if

the hydronium ions that is positively charged water exits from one end it's going to draw new water in the back end

and that one is the same thing it will perpetuate itself and so that's what we

found and and then um regarding the lymphatics I'm I'm getting to that so I

was in Russia and it was visiting my friend Vladimir vov who is who is uh the

effective head of the biochemistry Department in Moscow University and he quickly introduced me

to a colleague of his from down hall and the guy couldn't speak English so

Vladimir translated and he started by saying to me there's a bit problem in

the cardiovascular system and I'm thinking hey what's what is this guy GNA

tell me in my my PhD I studied pressures and flows in the cardiovascular

system and you know I thought I had it all worked out um and in five minutes he

had me convinced that I was wrong wow so why am I wrong um he said

the problem is this the problem the problem is um that that in the cardiovascular system

um the red blood cells have a dimension of six or seven

micrometers U on the other hand some of the small capillaries have a a diameter

half of that something like three or four micrometers so you got a plumbing problem U and you know what happens you

know if if your toilet gets stopped up uh you need to take the plumer you know

and right and and Plum um so it requires energy to to Crunch

those red blood cells to uh configuration where they actually can

get through those tiny capillaries and and I have videos showing that uh that

the red blood cells which you know has the classic donut kind of shape um get

squeezed as they they have to get squeezed because otherwise they wouldn't be able to go through and that requires

energy so he calculated how much energy is required

and of course any calculation uh could be erroneous in in some ways but even if

he's wrong by uh by a factor of 10 or 100 or so still is a big problem because

he calculated that that if the pressure of The ventricle is responsible not only for

driving the flow but for squeezing the red cells that pressure would need to be something like one million times higher

than it actually is wow that's sort of high blood pressure yeah yeah so he

might you know even if his calculation is off is a problem um so some somehow

he concluded that there must be um something else besides the heart that's

driving the blood um and I'm I'm I'm I'm

thinking uh well we in the laboratory we just found this so-called spontaneous flow uh through tubes maybe the same

thing is going on there um well and and we tested it and

and we found indeed that that's the cas we just published two weeks ago oh

really uh we tested the signature feature uh of this mechanism namely that

if we had infrared energy um it drive it it goes faster and we found exactly that

so we conclude Ed that that in in your cardiovascular system and in mine um I

guess not sure of mine but U but it's run not only by the heart but it's also

driven by the vessels themselves wow in the laboratory when you think about it also

my student uh found literature and it turns out it turns out that when the

heart stops you'd expect you expect that the flow would stop but it doesn't stop

it actually he found uh it it goes on for an extended length of time

indicating that you know there's got to be another mechanism besides the heart because the heart's not pumping anymore

right he also found in literature over the past hundred years um that there

have been he found I think six different Publications showing exactly that the

heart stops circulation continues goodness which means or I guess which

can only only mean that there got to be something else you know simple logic so

so the conclusion of of that I'll get to the lymphatics in a moment conclusion of

all that is is that our circulatory system um is run is driven by by two two

drivers one is the heart we already know the other is the vessels themselves wow

and we actually don't know how much of the energy comes from the heart and how much comes from the vessels because

because the setup we used uh was not capable of demonstrating it the reason is you know when you stop the heart the

heart transitions uh from a pump to an obstacle sitting there doing nothing

right and if if the vessels are driving driving the flow that flow meets that

obstacle and slows down so in order to find out we got to remove the obstacle

and then so it might be you know might be the heart represents a only a only a

small fraction of the energy that's responsible for driving the flow or it

might be the the as thought now the major

um contributor we're not sure at the same time now um uh if if this flow U

occurs in the laboratory in various tubes a whole lot of them we we tried

and in the cardiovascular system then of course it raises the question well what about the lymph atics why why would that

be Exempted from uh from it and so I think that the lymphatic flow might

actually be driven by this very same mechanism we haven't written any papers

on it but it seems logical that that's the case and if you put your hands on there

infrared from your hands or the pressure can can amplify that flow that makes

perfect sense yeah so the idea of manual moving things or there's herbs that will

do it but you could also do all of the things that will build EZ and theoretically that would have a similar absolutely amplification effect

absolutely amazing so what have I not asked you that you want to make sure you leave with our audience General

philosophy um most of science today um the scientists are dotting the

eyes and crossing the tees um and we've had we've had almost no scientific

revolutions we had lots of technological revolutions you know like the computer that I'm using right now uh and such but

I'm talking about fundamental scientific revolutions you know of the same

magnitude as say the the uncovering of the genetic code that was 65 years ago

splitting of the atom that was 75 years ago it's really hard to think of

something like that that's happened in the past 30 or 40 years and what's the

reason for it so you know it might be said that everything that needs to be

known or that could be known as already known and I would challenge that

immediately second reason is is that scientists are less clever than they

were you know that might and the third reason is is that there there's some um

obstacle in the way science is getting done and I think that's the case so if

um for example if you um if you had an idea this is the example I'd like to to

give you have an idea that the Earth is round right but everybody everybody knows the Earth is flat that's the

prevailing view it's flat Earth yeah and you decide um you know you've got some quote preliminary evidence that the

Earth is round and you want to get money to to get more evidence your preliminary

evidence is you've assembled some photos taken from satellites and from the Moon and you could see the curvature and and

you've also decided to take off uh from where you are go west uh and land in San

Francisco and then Tokyo and then Beijing

and Afghanistan and London keep circling the earth and you come back to the same

place and so it looks like that also is you know good evidence that the Earth is actually a sphere and not it's not a

flat sheet and um you assemble that evidence and you write a proposal please

give me money uh either National Science Foundation or whatever Foundation um and

um and your application is received uh by the gatekeeper a conscientious um uh

young maybe flunky or or not or whatever who gets this job being the gatekeeper

and sees oh H this this proposal from Lauren um H I don't I don't know her but

um this is a pretty radical idea I I would better in order to make sure that

it's properly reviewed I I better recruit the world's experts um on the

shape of the earth to see whether this is this is real because if it's real it's really important or it's

flaky and so who are those reviewers well they're the experts in Flat Earth

right because everybody thinks so so well you're proposing is to step on

their toes of course you're right they're wrong and you know human nature

um it it doesn't it doesn't work very well so so it's the system that I mean

you you could be spawning a scientific revolution if you're right about about

the round earth um but the system doesn't allow you to do it and you know

most scientists are clever enough to figure out that they better not challenge the status quo because they're

going to fail and if they fail it may be that they won't be able to put bread on the table of their families um some

people are support their own salaries are supported by grants so you have to be you have to be careful about that I

hesitate to use the word corrupt uh because the system is not really in

intended to be corrupt but but It suffers this kind of serious problem and

I think I think that be the reason um U why we've had no scientific revolutions

we need revolutions we need them badly uh because because um uh you know

revolutions inevitably lead to lead to new technologies and we need these new

technologies to help solve the many problems of the world but we're not getting them we're just getting

incremental improvements so I think uh um that

first of all the system needs needs to change it's a seriously antithetical to the

development of radical ideas it we're impacted just as well it's almost

impossible you know with with our you might say radical views of of biology

and Beyond to get money uh it's a real struggle and in order to in order to to

keep going we need we need funding but it's really hard to get funding for the reasons that I I I just mentioned and so

at the risk of belaboring the point I just want to say that that it's really

important to study fundamentals you know we

don't for for example any foundation that we we like to build on needs to be

secure it needs to be firm otherwise any mechanism that builds on the foundation

that's not correct is going to be uh just very complicated and frankly wrong

so my view is that you know somehow we should not hesitate to go down to the

deepest foundational levels and build up from there yeah and well I I'm trying to

do that um I've got two books coming and one of them is actually on the um the

second one is on the structure of the atom oh wow really well yeah I mean we

learn we learned that the atom is like a solar system um you know we learned that

in middle school but how do we know it's correct it was put forth by a human

being and human beings can be wrong um although we like to think they're right it's been it's been in the textbooks for

five generations um you know and and um is it is it right so I could I think

think convince you uh in two minutes uh um that there's something fundamentally

wrong um if I may just yeah please yeah yeah yeah okay so you have

nucleus nucleus consists of in theory um consists of protons and neutrons the

neutrons are neutral they're just sort of like dead weight protons are positively charged

you squeeze positive charges together what do they want to do repel so the nucleus should

explode now the the physicist recognized this fundamental problem and they

invented something called quote the strong force yes so no evidence for the

in no independent evidence it just sort of glue that was invented to hold it all together interesting yeah and then well

I'll give you one more but there are half dozen um uh one more is that nucleus is positively charged electrons

are negatively char charged I learned in middle school that minus and plus attract one another right therefore why

don't those electrons attracted to the nucleus collapse onto the nucleus uh

basically u meaning that there's no atom anymore it's just yeah so those are a

couple of the fundamental flaws the atom needs to be stable it can't explode and can't it can't um contract to nothing

and so um in I've indeed come up with with an alternative model that I think

explains the evidence better I'm giving you this just as an example yeah of that

we really need to be sure of the foundation if we're not sure of the foundation everything will be super

complicated that's where we are today sure yeah it's the aams razor thing right the idea a razor thing exactly

right yeah Simplicity nature operates on Simplicity I

coming out well um the the limiting factor is the artist who is my son he's

supremely talented if you read the fourth phase Book You'll see oh that was him yeah that was him okay and he

decided a few years ago that his family is growing that he needed a home

remodel Dad if you don't mind I'm going to do it I'm going to have to take a year off to do it well three and a half

years later finally he's getting back to it oh yeah he's working on the first book which I didn't mention first new book

which deals with the um the unsuspected role of electricity in nature that we

see around us uh so many things I believe uh the evidence uh suggests are

are run by electric charge uh we don't think of it that way and that that

ranges all the way from weather um in which uh I spent four chapters

developing how weather actually works from first principles up to hurricanes won't find anything anywhere

on that because I think it doesn't exist so I just made an attempt gravitation

how that works ofh how birds fly um how

fish swim and stuff like that and I fly away from anything pardon me I said you don't shy

away from anything no I don't shy away because um you know deep down and I can't I can't figure out what the

reasons are but I'm looking for Truth at the most fundamental level and so I'm

also you know just before this interview I was working on chapter three of my books on my book on volcanoes and

earthquakes uh so no I don't shy away from anything I think water uh is is

involved um in in a way that I'll leave the explanation for the book but very

simp um right now we have no idea where the energy comes from the energy to

power a volcanic eruption or an earthquake um which were anticipating in

the Seattle area where I live a 9.1 yeah it's happened if I remember the

span of time uh roughly every 300 or 350 years um many times on and on and we're

Way Beyond we're do we overdue any so you know the devastating earthquakes

that we hear about all the time are usually magnitude seven or something like that nine nine or 9.1 is aund times

stronger right my goodness wow well where can people go who want to find out

more about you uh well there are many many

presentations on the internet um slide presentations other there are other interviews but I think the best place um

is to read read the book um the fourth phase of water the book has turned out

to be very popular and I think popularity is

probably rests on the the artistic contribution of my

son well Al that how revolutionary the idea is too well yeah there are

revolutionary ideas but I'm proud of my son and how he illustrates he's a

sculptor by training and one day he said dad I would like to illustrate your books so there we are fantastic yeah I

think that that's the best place the fourth phase of water and and there are

many papers in the literature if you just look under my name or on on my

website University website um poock lab.org

you you can find a lot there as well well fantastic well I will link to the

book and to your website and the show notes and thank you Jerry this has been fantastic well thank you for the

opportunity it's really fun and uh please take care and uh it was it was

really my pleasure thank you so much okay are you looking for a holistically

minded health care practitioner who truly treats root cause rather than symptom suppression unfortunately even

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