How Your Pain May Be Telling a Story : Interview with Jodi Scholes

welcome back to another episode of Christian Natural Health today I'm very pleased to have jod skols with us Jodie

is a celebrated author educator and licensed massage therapist with over 30 years of experience in understanding and

treating pain her work with the lead athletes including major league soccer team and US track and field athletes has

taken her across the US and internationally providing highle care and support her book body blueprint how

your pain may be telling a story explores how a person's perception of pain is not solely influenced by

biological factors but is also profoundly affected by mental and emotional stress jod has shared her

insights on a global stage including delivering a TED Talk titled body blueprint how your body how your pain

may be telling a story which is great by the way I highly recommend it she is a retired triathlete herself and an

improving tennis player uh she continues to speak at Retreats teach weekly and provide massage therapy blending her

extensive experience with her passion for holistic Wellness welcome Jody thanks so much for joining us oh thanks

Dr Lauren it's great to be here appreciate the invitation yes absolutely so tell us a little bit about your

backstory why you wrote the book body blueprint and what was kind of the motivating factor for

that well the motivating factor was from seeing thousands of clients stuck I mean

some of my clients were really my massage clients were really stuck in a cycle of chronic pain and as a talented

massage therapist I wanted to explore all the different things that could be impacting that pain right and so it was

one particular client um um Marcy and

Marcy got bronchitis every year and Marcy is super healthy eats

well ran marathons right and I was like this just is not adding up right well when I did

my exploration of different things that's what we talked about the Tea breath easy tea and you know just all

these different things that so y I do that oh y Omega U I think it Omega 6 or

omega-3 fatty acids that would help and but then I said well you know

traditional Chinese medicine says that the lungs are related to unexpressed

grief right yeah

silence and she said well that might be the case I've never really gotten over

the death of my mother since that when she I was [Music] 14 and I could tell by the way she

replied that something had resonated I had worked with Marcy

for three years at least she had never ever told me right that she had lost her

mom m but her body was ready to process some of that sadness right and and she

did some taiichi she did some movement therapy she did some talk therapy she I

mean she explored some new avenues right yeah and that year she didn't get bronchitis that's awesome very cool so

and that led you to recognize that there were emotional underpinnings to physical

issues or at least there could be yeah yeah it went ding ding ding for me yeah

that I was like wait a minute uhhuh there are emotions that are tied to different parts of our body right yeah

yeah let me look at that and so I dug in um and looked at I correlated the body

the areas of the body that I saw in my clients that had the most chronic stress low back you know Shoulders Knees um and

I I did some digging and found that there were emotional connections to

different parts of the body so I Incorporated that into my U Massage

practice right and did some qualitative research over the next 20 years yeah sure and I loved it I loved the results

because what I found is that we heal not only the physical

body we also heal on a mental and an emotional level as well you know yep

absolutely yeah and so give us a few more ideas like you you kind of introduced in your book this idea that

your biography becomes your biology so that reminds me of the book that is also

titled the body weeps tears the eyes cannot shed so do you find that usually it's because something has not been

processed like if it gets processed does it move on out for the most part or is it so it's mostly the things that are

get suppressed and then they turn into physical issues you found yeah yeah exactly they get put in a nice neat

little box right get lid gets put on it's like not going to deal with that

right and your listeners may even know some examples of this yeah um because

you back in you well there's um let me

just so your listeners may actually already understand this by something

called broken heart syndrome yep so your listeners may know

someone it happens like when C when um people have been married for a long time

and then one of the spouses passed and about for in that next six months a lot

of times we lose the other spouse um

and that is some in in generic terms we call it broken heart syndrome um but now

uh somebody Dr takubo is actually studying it and it's called takubo syndrome right and it's a real thing mhm

that this event your biography and you that's happened in

your this event sure your biology yeah and I don't know how old

your listeners are but um Johnny Cash the the singer The Man in Black um he

was married to June Carter Cash yeah you know just beautiful love story um but

June passed away in May of 2003 [Music]

Johnny passed in September oh of 2003 how sad but that is very sweet that

correlation that's that tight right yeah yeah and we see many examples of it but

that's another example of how your biography can impact your biology right

yeah and so that particular example I'm thinking correlation to Homeopathy which I practice quite a bit in my practice

there a remedy that is for acute grief um is what you're describing and usually

the way I explain it to people is that it's not like it makes the grief go away obviously it can't do that but what it

does is it helps it to move through so that you can process it so that it doesn't take up shop and turn into

physical symptoms and it helps people to move through a little quicker in that way as well so exactly the same concept

because if you do not deal with it it's going to come out somehow right mhm

that's been my experience right I agree yes it's going yeah and that's why the

subtitle of the book um is how your pain may be telling a story sure yeah because

you that it pain shows up for a reason yeah right yeah sometimes it's physical

if your appendix is about to burst it hurts yeah right you know um but sometimes there's more layers to that

right especially if it's chronic sure especially if it's chronic right meaning if it comes and it goes

and it comes back and oh under particularly stressful times I get this symptom uhuh right a let's

explore yeah so give us some more examples so people can maybe see

themselves or somebody they know in some of the ex the the client cases that you've experienced absolutely yeah um

one that maybe your listeners will resonate is when my clients Stan um Stanley uh Stan uh moved his parents

just down the road from him and uh his dad had a slip and fall and so then Stan

moved his parents into the house and when I saw Stan he had just

out of the blue started getting right shoulder right shoulder pain and I said well has anything

changed lately you know did you have she's a triac he's super fit right um

and he overdoes it you know sure um and he's like no man you know he's a really

good swimmer um and so you know shoulder um he's like nah you know no I've been

taking it easy he goes ever since my parents moved in you know our schedules have really changed yeah and I was like

oh tell me more right because the the shoulders

represent responsibility sure and like for example

the weight of the world on your shoulders yeah right and stand the the

weight of the world the weight of of what was going to happen with his parents right and in my studies and and

in you can look this up I'm sure your your listeners will um but the right

side of the body represents masculine energy interesting and the left side of the body represents feminine energy and

so I explore that a little bit and it it's in alignment with Stan's case um

because he's the oldest child and he felt like he had to step up and take

responsibility for whatever was going to happen with his parents right and yet he

and his wife had not expected that they'd be caretakers sure

yeah um in fact he told me that his dad's memory was okay um um but they

used to love going to baseball games and they couldn't even take him to the baseball games anymore just wasn't

wasn't happening so there was a lot processing emotionally for Stan right um

the resolution well he took it to prayer to be honest um and got a

massage to treat physical right we address us on the mental the emotional the physical level you know right yeah

absolutely yeah and you he he reached out to his sister uh who lived he lived in the Northeast

and she lived in um in Texas and he reached out and turns out

that his sister had a whole half of the first floor of their home that they had

designed for when the day came that either her parents or her husband's

parents right a place to live that's great that's so great and it his parents

were all for it right and at first he was like wait a minute you don't want to stay with me sure yeah you know wait a

minute but it it just unfolded beautifully unfolded beautifully but you

know coincidentally he had pain in his right shoulder sure maybe

maybe yeah but there's been a lot of coincidences over my last 30 years sure

I can imagine absolutely so yeah that certainly makes makes a lot of sense and as you're describing the weight of the

world on the shoulders most people correct me if I'm wrong you'd know better than I would but it seems like that most people carry their tension in

the traps like the top of the Trap muscles and that is that also often carrying weight of the world or not

necessarily weight of the world yeah or an imbalance in responsibilities okay okay so I mentioned that the right

shoulder with Stan oldest child oldest you know son you know masculine I need

to take care of this right um had another um shoulder I was um speaking

with my assistant and she went to grab something oh you know and I was like oh

is your left shoulder bothering you and she's like yeah it's you know I probably slept on it wrong um

and I said oh well would you like to explore that just a little further and she's like sure right and I

said well um you don't have to say yay or nay but I'll just let you know that

the shoulders represent responsibility and an imbalance in the responsibility yep as

in the left side represents feminine so is there a feminine role that you're

taking on a lot of responsibility maybe more than you had planned

on maybe you're a little resentful about it not resentful but maybe frustrated or

maybe tired or feeling impatient yeah

and she saidwell well first of all she her eyes got like

big yeah and she said you don't know this about me but I'm a single

mom wow and she said and my parents didn't want me to have the

child oh wow and so they're not very supportive with their help MH he said

this weekend was a rough weekend and said but I wouldn't trade my choice

for anything I love my baby girl sure yeah and I said okay well your body might be squawking at you a little you

know absolutely and uh and she was dating a fabulous fellow and um the

following year they uh well about six months later they got engaged and the following year they got married and I

mean um and he loves that little girl as much as he loves their biological

children he loves that little girl um and uh yeah yeah it's a pretty cool

story actually and uh and once she talked about it um once once Nina talked

about it she said she actually felt better yep just processing right yeah

yeah and we see this um with uh a woman named we see this same like talking it

about it or airing it out um we see a similar um study U from

hospice um so Dame Sicily Saunders um was the founder of hospice what we know

now as hospice and what she found well she uses

a term called total pain that some of her hospice people are are just in total

pain and that's not just physical that's like they're in mental anguish

they're they're they're just they know they're about to P you know they know they're about to die

right and what she found was by staying present with that

person that their pain on the Pain Scale on the traditional Pain Scale their pain

would go from an eight to a four what do you mean by staying present

just allowing them to be to process what they were feeling that kind of a thing

yeah same present means different things but it's it's really paying attention so does that person want to talk okay okay

does that person want their handheld right okay does that person want to go on a

walk does that is the person in a hospital setting or in you the hospice

setting sure um and you know are are they crying you know do they just need

someone to be like Comfort them maybe put a hand on a shoulder right that's

what I mean by being present right definitely makes sense but I mean she documented it

and um and now fast forward that was in the 1950s I think it was um St

Christopher's Hospital in London was the first location and um and now that's how

hospice workers are trained oh really nice yeah to to show up and like be just

and it's there's another term called hold the space sure right so hold the space you know what's happening with the

family if the family is present maybe they don't have family yeah so but uh so pain is not

just physical right is what Dame sis saers was pointing out right that pain

can be perceived as even worse when there's mental or

emotional stress yep absolutely that makes sense so kind of along those lines

you talk in the book about muscle memory aside from like with sports so how how

does that apply to what we're talking about here oh great question yeah because most people know muscle memory

as hey I'm gonna go learn how to play baseball or tennis or take a ball um but

when it comes to pain or um when it comes to Body Work massage and body work

when I talk about muscle memory um I talk about the memory that is held

within the body let me give you an example that'll be easier so my client will call her

Mary um I'm massaging Mary's lower

leg and all of a sudden I hear a

sniffle and I look and Mary is crying um that's not normal during a

massage uh but I take hands off say am I does this

hurt and she said no no no I just

remembered sitting on the kitchen floor with my back up against the cupboards

and my husband kicking

me that I'm I'm divorced from him

now I used to say that it wasn't that bad it wasn't that bad you know right but it was that

bad and but she said you know I I I haven't

thought about that for a long time say but that did

happen and by nurturing that part of her leg that had received one of the kicks

right this memory surfaced surfaced

and she could have compassion for herself in making the decision she made

at that time right and she eventually found her way to compassion for her ex-husband too

right wow good for her yeah he's angry sure yeah so um but that's what I'm

talking about when I talk about muscle memory in bodyw work terms um some

people may know that as a somatic emotional release yeah so just again demonstrating

that when we're ready to process a memory an

idea a past traumatic event an adverse childhood experience that in a safe

environment like the environment of a massage room sure yeah or under the care

of a loving um naturopathic doctor you know that sometimes we heal on more than

just the physical level sometimes we're letting go of a lot of other stuff too yeah absolutely

so I remember you're gonna have to tell me what this if this is relevant at all

years ago I think when I was in medical school I heard about body talk and then I never really investigated it a great

deal beyond that what is it why am I remembering that right now is that essentially what you're describing you

know I'd have to look into the actual definition yeah because that's not something I'm certified in not okay okay

but I I love that you've brought that up right and because to explore right okay

so Body Talk how is the body talking to us sure okay and the way I listen to the

body is by following the pain pattern sure yeah yeah yeah and the way you

investigate the story is very much the way I do because the people's stories will usually lead you to the answer so

there's only so many in my experience possible obstacles to cure at least there only so many I know about we're

discovering new ones all the time there's only so many possible building blocks that are necessary for health and

then there's this third piece of supporting your body's vitality and it's like there's new set points potentially

where you're holding on to Old triggers and but if you can listen to the story

and say when this symptom began what was going on at the time and then you can

trace the history the biography as you say a lot of times that will lead you to what you need to do in order to gain

release yeah yeah yeah it's a little messy if I'm being honest it is yeah

because it's it's emotions right it's it's like no I'm you know you know I've got a stiff upper lip I'm fine sure and

you I will say also Al as women you as as strong women vulnerability and

weakness you know that's something that you we don't like to don't like to get in there we don't

like to be perceived as weak um sure and yet again when there's chronic pain well

you talk in your podcasts about when there is disease in the body right if it hangs

out long enough it turns into disease yep absolutely right that makes sense so out

of curiosity how did this translate to treating professional athletes did you find in the most CA in most cases was it

physical for them or was it both and like in that particular case yeah so

yeah I spent a decade um with uh professional soccer in the United States shout out to DC

United socer uh and then um moved into working with us track and field again in

the in the um District uh the DC Maryland Virginia area Okay um yeah and

supporting those athletes and so as a part of their team um we were really

reaching uh we I'll talk specifically to soccer um it was mostly

physical um and yet um in the quiet of the treatment room because there are

different types treatment I spent a lot of time in the locker room as well lot of time on the road with these guys um

and their mental state of mind was

critical to their positive performance yeah that makes sense their

mental state was very important and it it translated in nuts and bolts and I used to be a very nuts and bolts type of

massage therapist okay your hamstring is tight let's it let's get it right and

then I started correlating again in the locker room stress in a player's life was

translating to poor performance sure yeah and so how could massage how could

treatment on some level other than you know the hotter you the the the cold tank right where they would jump in yeah

um but allowing them to process whatever stress was going on we had um five

players that were not from the US in fact that's a fun fact about Major League Soccer that um the majority of

players on the team are are Americans are from the United States um you are

allowed to have five International Players but that's it oh interesting okay yeah yeah they really wanted to

develop soccer in the United States right okay and so yeah so that's yeah um

and now we have amazing team teams even more amazing than when I was working with them uh shout out to Lionel Messi

at Inter Milan inter Miami um but

uh keeping that player healthy on a physical level and on a mental level was

a big part of my role and so if there was stressors if there was a problem physically or mentally it was my job to

bring it back to the Head trainer M okay and that was spelled out clearly to the

entire medical team oh wow okay messages that we would give to the players positive your body is responding

well you're healing quickly gosh you're getting stronger yeah you all of those positive

images um and then if there was an issue like I don't know if he's gonna be ready for game day yeah I tell that to the

Head trainer right okay not to the player that of course because of course

that would probably trip up if you said that right exactly exactly and it wasn't

that we were withholding information but we were going to support that player in a different way to make sure he was game

game day ready or we would introduce the idea early that you know you might not

be on the pitch you know on Saturday right yeah yeah got it but yeah that's

how it translated and actually gave me even more curiosity right uh about a

person's mental state State cuz I saw it over 10 years with great players I mean

the number 10 player um on a soccer team is usually the best player usually okay yeah yeah and so our number 10 player is

name's Marco eer and he's also our oldest player okay but he would get

massage pregame postgame he would get massage after practice there were times

where there was a massage table in the main locker room area um because he want a massage during halftime oh my yeah so

you um and I say that to demonstrate that soccer or football depending on

where you're from right yeah um is a global sport that recognizes the

benefits of both eastern and western Medicine sure absolutely you know it's

fun to see it was fun to see how many of those all the players wanted massage like right at nobody had to be convinced

oh yeah but there are times you know in in American football um traditional you

know us football these guys you know up until like the last decade have not did not get a lot of work did not get a lot

of body work so it was fun to be in an environment um that really was like yeah

yeah me next celebrating that yeah very cool so uh you mentioned to me

before we got on the air that on your website you have a map of the body so

tell tell the listeners what that is and how they can utilize it yes all right so on my website I'm really happy with this

thing it's called the body blueprint map and so in the book I go through I think

it's a dozen different body parts um but I translated that into a visual uh on my

website where you can hover over a body part and

get the idea of what emotional or mental

stressor is associated with that body part I love that that's such a great tool very cool so I usually ask this at

the end but tell people where they can go to find that you uh find that at jod

skulls.com fabulous yes and hover over books the little and then on that tab

you'll see the map awesome very cool yeah what have I not asked you that you

want to make sure you with our audience well I'll tell you there are

two things one is that when I talk about this topic about how mental

stress turns into physical pain I often hear people say you know I

believe that everybody just kind of knows intuitively you kind of do know right

yeah and because of that an emotional stress also can show up and make

physical pain worse sure yeah and so what I'd like your listeners

to remember is that there's hope there's hope even when the doctors

say nothing is wrong when you've had so many tests when you don't want to be on

tons of medications because of the side effects right that pain is there as a

message potentially sure and that there is hope in figuring out the real source of pain

right yeah and I would piggyback on that that even if the source of pain is physical and not mental emotional it's

still a messenger it's always a symptom that leads you to the answer some of the

most difficult cases for me to treat are people who have like one super generic symptom and there's nothing else to go

on and there's no timeline like that's like now needle in a hay stack now you just go fish but the more specific they

are even the more symptoms they are and the clearer the timeline the easier it is to figure out because they are their

Clues so yes absolutely that's a great way to look at it very cool well thank

you so much Jody this has been really encouraging I appreciate it oh thanks Dr Lauren this has been a pleasure it's

really lovely to get to know you better and to um to have a little time with your your listeners thanks so much for

the opportunity absolutely

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