Full-Time: Work and the Meaning of Life. Interview with David Bahnsen

welcome back to another episode of Christian Natural Health today I'm excited to have David banson with us

David is the founder managing partner and chief investment officer of the banson group a national private wealth

management firm with offices in multiple States managing 4.5 billion in client assets and prior to launching the banson

group he spent eight years as managing director at Morgan Stanley and six years as a vice president at UBS he is

consistently named as one of the top financial advisers in America by Baron Forbes and the financial times he is a

frequent guest on CNBC Bloomberg Fox News and Fox Business and is a regular contributor to National Review he hosts

the the popular weekly podcast Capital record dedicated to a defense of free enterprise and and capital markets he's

the author of several best-selling books today he's here to talk about his upcoming book full-time work and the

meaning of life welcome David thanks for joining us well thank you so much for having me yeah so um give us first of

all a little elevator pitch for your book and then we'll kind of dive into it from there well I I really do believe

that um the the world right now is in this bizarre mode of viewing work as

part of the problem in society instead of part of the solution and I really wish that it was different in the

Christian world and I think oftentimes it isn't I think that most pastors are

sort of program to preach some kind of message against working too hard and all

the of cliche cautions about ignoring your family and and careerism and

ambition you know being a big negative and there obviously can be moments and times which that there are uh pieces of

Truth there that have to be understood but I think the predominant theme uh

that we take is just too often uh against work against the work ethic

against sacrifice against the Dignity of one being engaged in this productive

activity that I believe God made us for and that I believe is really the need of

the hour for the health of our society that we are increasingly seeing people

with greater alienation isolation um there is a a a sort of

belief that various therapeutic things can be useful to help get people away

from the Ure of work when I find work itself to be very therapeutic and I say

that by God's design how do you think we got so far

off track why is it that people have that idea that work is detrimental to

the things that quote unquote really matter well it's a wonderful question and I spent a little time in the book trying to evaluate that I think that

over the last 100 years we've gotten off track with a number of things in terms of how Christians Engage The Public

Square how Christians engage being a part of society so it's this age old old

question about Christ and culture how do we live in the world when we're not of it and I think that the American

experiment the founding of our country the the Puritans I think there's a great tradition out of the Protestant

Reformation and I think there's a great tradition even in Catholic Social thought that was all very proor and in

the last hundred years whether it be in the field of medicine technology law

business finance I think that Christians became more content with separating and

less content with engaging and that there was a certain surrender a retreat from many aspects of

the Public Square and the marketplace has been in my mind the most

depressing um collateral damage of that uh over the last 30 40 years there's a

lot of Christians that have re-engaged in politics there's a lot of Christians who have re-engaged in education we we

know about the growth of The Homeschool movement Christian School movement I know that there are those that are

trying to gauge a better understanding of Christians in medicine and health and obviously I know that's the field you're

passionate about but how many Christians seem to be really re-engaging in the

notion of dominion stewardship cultivation Excellence performance in

the marketplace robust entrepreneurialism I think that's a sadly missing in radient

and so you think that some of this comes from like the separation of it's I guess church and state but now it's not just

church and state it's also church and business do you feel like some of the reason why there people aren't as

passionate about like um the marketplace or entrepreneurship has something to do with the fear of like pursuing money

sort of a thing as if that's been demonized is that part of it there's no question I think you make a great point there and I have a whole chapter in the

book on this where we equate some so often a high view of work a high view of

career a high view of ambition with material prosperity and I believe first

of all that there is something very appropriate and very acceptable about about one pursuing greater um uh

situation for themselves and their family the Proverbs just over and over again hold out um material Prosperity as

an incentive for hard work but yes the reality is that I think what we need is

a theology that says the work itself is Meaningful that we are serving others in

our work we can achieve some elements of Our Own self-interest in our work but we

contribute to Creation we build culture we build civilization we we we really um Can mirr

what our Our Father did uh he created the world and asked us to go create out

of his creation Now we can't create out of nothing he he did that what they call

ex nilo but we can create out of the materials he gave us yeah and so I often

you know hold up iPhone here which is arguably the most successful consumer product in world history is it oh wow oh

well I mean certainly in terms of profits and margins and uh you know um

by those types of metrics uh you you and how quickly it has permeated the the

society it's unbelievable for good or for bad I mean you know there's addictions and and and uses of apps that

that obviously are a different story but no it's a really successful product right and it didn't it didn't come about

till 2007 and it's been upgraded about 20 times since it in one little device

holds more computing power than the entire Pentagon had 50 years ago wow um

but every single thing in it it existed at the Garden of Eden right exactly the

only thing that's new is human Ingenuity human ideas yeah that's the story of

work yeah it that actually reminds me of the passage in Genesis uh with the Tower

of Babel where from a negative standpoint God looks down and he says now nothing that they imagine to do will

be restrained from them like there's so much power in what humans can accomplish if they put their minds to it absolutely

so of course that of course that passage Babel what's fascinating is it was men working to try to be God true yeah and

and yet we as Christians are called to work to serve one another and and to build a Christian culture and it in a

way it's be work becomes the anti- Tower of Babel message for a properly ordered

Christian life and that's it I think so much of it just has to do with what do you place on the pedestal of your life

if it's work then it becomes contaminated but if you have God first and you put work in its proper place

then it can be oriented in a way such that you can glorify him uh So speaking of that identity and work so what what

is your perspective on how much or how little what we do as a career should

influence how we see ourselves well let me start with an obvious statement that's very

uncomfortable for people but when I word it the way I'm about to they at least can't deny it even if they don't like it

okay the idea that who we are is totally completely separate from what we do is

one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard nobody believes right that

the person laying on the couch all day doing nothing and a person who is out

creating new products and services in an impressive way and developing the a

really unique well executed business um those are the two that they're the the

same things that th those people have no element in their identity that reflects

what they've chosen to do with their time and resources and talents the parable of the talents right tells us

differently right um on an extreme case because very few people are Michael Jordan or or the you know I think of uh

the my my daughter loved uh the gymnast in the US Olympics number of years ago

and and I thought what a silly idea that they are sep that what they've accomplished and achieved and why my

daughter knows them and respects them and appreciates them is separate from the work they did to get there it's the

core of who they are true and I think a really appropriate way to say it that

should be more comfortable for people is that work is not all of our identity but

it isn't less than our identity it it may not be the whole of it but it is at very minimum a significant part of it M

and that myself as a Christian man I am also a husband and a father and I am

involved in a Christian School I'm the a son of a a a late Christian intellectual

there are different things that are a part of my story there's a whole lot of things about your story but what we do

with our time and resources here on Earth is indeed not only what we will

most be known for but also what God has expected of us it's the it's the heart

of the burden Upon Our Christian life and it's not mutually

exclusive one of the things I want to do as a Christian parent is not just raise Godly kids that are healthy and well

adjusted and and that they feel and always have access to my unconditional

love which is I think the heart of being a parent but I want them to grow up to be great workers and contributors and if

all I'm here to do is love my kids so that they can grow up to love their kids so they go to love their kids and we

don't ever get into the work element of it there's this sort of um

unsustainability of a Christian life like that and so I do very much feel comfortable saying work is a huge part

of our identity so what's the quote I don't remember who said it but that we are what we repeatedly do so the more

we're doing something the more that contributes to our self-perception and what we see is as Who We Are um so how

do you see God's purpose for our lives I know that's like a catchphrase but how does that fit into

this well I think that you I started in the book with Genesis chapter 1 which I

found for a lot of things is a great place to start for a for sure since it's

certainly where where God started and and I Look to before sin enter the world

right for the the fall um what God created us for and when he describes the

creation account I see a god working each day again with the uniquely Godlike

ability to create out of nothing and and then um appreciating his work at the end

of the day and saying it was good I see him then on the sixth day making us

mankind and um saying it was very good and that he had made us in His image and

then immediately chapter 1: 26- 8 asked us to have dominion over the Earth to

Steward the creation to cultivate to grow it was a an agenda of growth from

work but God created the world with scarcity he created the world with a limited amount of animals and asked Adam

and Eve to name the animals he created the world with a limited amount of apples and uh mankind was going to have

to allocate who wanted this many apples versus this many bananas and and there was going to be this sort of economic

process of Human Action and of course the sophistication and complexity of it

into a more modern form of work you know developed over time but that burden

theologically that was reiterated in chapter two of us being the stewards to be

fruitful to fill the Earth and subdue it this was what we were created

for and then When sin entered the world it didn't change that it just added the

awful dimension of sin yeah to those Endeavors and there were going there was

going to be pain and childbirth and there was going to be work uh toil and snare on the field right uh in work but

never at any point did it change the the issue that we were created for and I think that's where I start in my

understanding of this and I think it really plays into the understanding of a healthy Christian Life yeah so what

would you say to somebody who believes that there's one thing that they should do you know somebody's trying to figure

out what to do with their lives from a career standpoint do you believe that there's one thing that God has for each

individual one career path or are there many possibilities that could all glorify him or what's your take on that

well I think it's going to be different for a lot of people and I think it's going to be different in a lot of uh seasons of history there were was um it

was more common uh 40 50 60 years ago that people were trained in one thing and they would often do it throughout

their whole career and today there is more reinvention and there there is more development and I think one could be

called to a particular vocation a season of life and be called into a different vocation later oftentimes it isn't even

a different vocation it's a different employer sure right they have a skill set that one day they're doing at

company ABC and another day they're doing XYZ you know myself um I spent

many years as a managing director at a very large Wall Street firm and and I

left and started my own firm it became more of an entrepreneurial call and yet I'm still delivering the same services

and operating out of the same skill set uh that I had previously so these things can sometimes change on the margin but

not holistically but I I am quite sure that there are plenty of people that go through a more holistic

reinvention I guess the one caution I have is I think sometimes people do it for false um Christian reasons is

someone who is really really good in technology and has a great job and working hard in it and then they wake up

one day and they quit the technology job and say God called me to go plant a church yeah and and and maybe he did but

maybe there's um uh a poor theology that is telling you the technology work is

inferior spiritually to the Pastoral work and and that's really what I wrote the book against got it yeah that makes

perfect sense and so there what if I mean think of I think a lot of people have this idea that God has this

great big High Calling what if somebody finds themselves doing you know entrylevel day-to-day work that doesn't

seem glamorous can they still find Value and joy and God's purpose in

that I think honestly this is going to be the hardest thing for me to um

properly explain out of the book because and I knew this going in um I I'm I

think it's a very good question I think it's a very tough subject but I have really strong opinions about it the the

challenge will be that some could very easily and accurately say you I'm turning 50 years old this year I'm in

middle-aged part of my life I've been very successful financially and professionally um and and one could say

you have a a reasonably high profile High income job it's easy for you to say

work is great right uh you know I'm in the grind um I've had frustrations I

don't like the work I haven't found something that animates me and I the

reason I want that objection to come up is because I want to be very clear that

my life did not start my career did not start where it is now I um have no

college education my father who was my hero and best friend in the world passed

away when he was 47 I was 20 my mother was already gone and I had to start with

no money no resources and it was really God using work as that healthy diversion

that produced not only a lot of cathartic and therapeutic benefits but it was um that element that enabled me

to have a journey right and and I found the journey far more rewarding and

satisfying than the destination that and and so that that's where I want people to understand that they they could be in

a place where it seems um that there's a lot of drudgery but that that there needs to be

a perspective that leads to something that uh is more satisfying and that they

have that opportunity it's a choice one can make in a market economy to marry their passions to their skills yeah so

that as you're talking about the journey what popped into my head is Joseph Campbell's the hero's journey and what you describe sounds like the perfect

starting place of where you were versus the the journey to get to where God has you and I'm sure that there's plenty

more to come so what do you say about the opposite end of this spectrum when

people can swing too far over into workaholism how do we balance

that well I I think that the the balance uh is to me found in scripture um this

notion of something called the work life balance I think is very problematic yeah

because because it acts as if our work and our life are at odds with one another our work is part of our life

sure and and for those who don't believe me try going home and saying to your spouse I'm trying to balance you into my

life better right right right I don't think it would go over very well because our

spouse rightfully sees himself as an integral part of our life and that's where I think the work needs to be as

well yeah the the language I think is a little more biblical is the work rest

Paradigm it's not a work life balance it's a work rest Paradigm rest was made

by God for us and and I believe that the um six

days of working and one day of rest at least provides even apart from the specifics of how one theologically

applies it right just just at a high level it provides a mathematical ratio

yeah for sure I think is very very rewarding and so when a young person comes in and wants to know before I take

this job I want to make sure I get you know four weeks off here and I'm going to leave early Fridays and I get to

leave for the gym and I get yoga time every day there's a generational issue

here yeah that is putting too high of a reward on something before dues have been paid before one is kind of earned

into a little greater degree of margin and freedom and outside of the work rest Paradigm that I think is what I would

use as the kind of model in scripture so in other words you're specifically saying that's that ratio in and of

itself is what we need in order to be optimally healthy and not necessarily more yeah I I do believe that I I don't

I don't think that um that is a perfect ratio uh every season of one's life I

expect that one in their 70s is is going to have um different health and and and

physical and and and mental you know needs and and reality um but I think that the reality is it

was God's model and he created us in His image and where did I get the idea that

just because he did it we should do it I got that idea from him right yeah

absolutely and um so I've noticed at least with some of my patients I'm curious to know if you have the same

opinion that taking a full 24 hours off sequentially is more restorative than

taking 24 hours spaced out like little chunks here and there so I usually will

tell people if you have to do it in chunks then you can but it's better if you can put it all together so that you

can actually have that restoration would you agree I would and I guess even though you're sort of interviewing me on

this podcast I'd love to ask you a question because I wonder how you advise patients on the one obvious challenge in

that it seems not only very medically clear that it's restoratively Superior

to have that 24-hour chunk it also seems much more exegetically clear that that's what God actually said a Sabbath day

absolutely but it's technology is that the and I I struggle with this myself um

my wife and I try to take vacations together get weekends away we have a a a

couple houses we own that we use for that purpose um but the phone is always there the email is always there I wonder

how you counsel patients to deal with that because it's a somewhat newer phenomena absolutely and I think you

have to guard your time and that's what I mostly tell people is create the intention ahead of time so that you can

set yourself up for Success so if you intend to be off grid be off grid make

sure that you set aside specific times that you're going to check your email or your phone and the rest of the time have

it on airplane mode or have it out of sight so that it's not something that's going to constantly pop up because we

have you know the the culture does is structured such that we're always available and that can certainly take

you out of the time of being being present fully in the moment and being

able to connect with people with other people in our lives and with God and with you know what he what we what he

would have us do from a rest and relaxation standpoint for sure one one one thing that I found is that doing

that is a lot easier when you don't um broadcast it publicize it I see people

go on social media to say how they're going off social media or even when I sort of announced to my family or what

not like I want to know I want you to know we're going you know device free or whatnot yeah it when it's being done

somewhat physically it's harder to stick with it

true yeah but when you have this sort of internal resolve you're going to try that discipline of

disconnection um and it isn't something you've broadcasted to the to the world for a certain attention I think it's I

think it's more likely to be successful absolutely I'm actually reading a book right now um called willpower doesn't

work uh by Benjamin Hardy and uh it does structure the idea it's it's about the

idea of structuring your life such that you don't have to make decisions so like that you've already made them in advance

you've already set your environment up such that it is going to help to reinforce the decision you've already

made so I think that can be really beneficial and as you say it's not about hey look at me look at the great you

know decision that I've made so that I'm prioritizing the right things you just do it so uh yeah absolutely so what do

you envision if people if Christians were to begin to get this idea of going

into the workplace going into their area they as um I don't know if you know Lance W now with the the mountains of

influence but the various mountains of influence in society which is like business and economics and um education

and all of those if we were to really do our best in our various areas of influence how do you think that would

change the world well I think that in both bottom up and top down it is the

lowest hanging fruit to change the world that our ability to use elections in the political cycle or or our ability to

even just only you talk about the pulpits and Sunday morning messages change the world there's efficacy in all

those things the sphere of Church Life the sphere of political life but when you talk about the um leverage in the

marketplace and the ability for more Christians to permeate entrylevel jobs

in in hundreds of different sectors throughout the economy and then to become you cannot become at the top of a

field without starting and building up and I think that we need both we need a

significant amount of Christians that are at entrylevel positions filling the offices doing good work developing

reputation letting their light shine before and earning the respect of peers and

colleagues uh it grows an influence it grows God's kingdom absolutely but of

course it also then leads to more positions at the top and a lot of people

will use the word power pejoratively like I'm suggesting I want Christians have power and I I don't think of it

that way I think it's about influence I think it's about a witness I think that there is um uh when we can have more

influence and position in in various Fields medically legally

you uh and it's certainly the entrepreneurial environment uh having Christians that are making the devices

that become successful consumer products uh there there's just something that

would be totally transformative to the culture and yet if we settle for

mediocrity we can best get by we can at best survive but we cannot thrive

right yeah that makes sense I think that so many Believers are afraid of what

success might do to them if they make a lot of money or if they find themselves climbing the corporate ladder or if they

find themselves with influence thinking that that's going to corrupt them and of course there's always the possibility

because those things are are neutral they're neither good nor evil but they can be used for good or evil but if we

subjugate that to the Lord and we have that perspective then we can actually use those things for his glory

absolutely well that's right and you know there's a verse in the Proverbs that talks about someone saying oh I

can't get out of bed there's a lion in the street right right right yeah and and it's Proverbs being sarcastic about

that excuse making yeah I do humbly believe that a lot of Christians that

say I'm worried about having too much influence or or you know the money and the prestige going to my head I suspect

that a lot of those people that they're not as worried about that as they might say possibly true possibly true so what

have I not asked you that you want to make sure you leave with our audience I just really do want the

audience to know that in my defense of this robust view of work it is a pro-

family message um it is true that I understand that there'll be people in their work commitments in the vision I

have for work that sometimes miss a family dinner sometimes I have to work late there's tradeoffs in life and yet

this is not about saying I pick career over family right it's about saying that the holistic Christian Life cannot allow

family and and other commitments that we care about Church community Etc as to be

an excuse for ignoring this element of the Christian Life it is really

unacceptable socially uh theologically in a community to say yeah I work really

hard but I just don't hang out my family at all no one is going to tolerate it right but it is not a socially

unacceptable message to say I'm really devoted to my family I don't care much about my job I do what I can to get by

but I'm really there for my my wife and kids or husband and kids and so forth that message is greeted with almost

enthusiasm true I think they're equally unbiblical yep absolutely so where can

people go to get a copy of a book and learn more about you well the so the book is certainly available at Amazon

and Barnes & Noble all the normal spots but we created a website fulltime

book.com that not only will have the uh places one can go to buy the book online

but um updates of clips and audio and interviews and other things that just

provide a little bit of a a a snapshot to the message and meaning behind the book and from the fulltime book.com

website they could link to my own company website to my personal s do a

lot of Reading Writing and and so forth and those that are interested in all this types of stuff will find plenty of

ways to stay in touch with me and I would certainly love that um but fulltime book.com is the easiest site to

go to awesome well I will link to that in the show notes and thank you David this has been really entertaining and interesting well I really appreciate

having me thank you so much thank you

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