Biblical Counseling and the Life Counsel Bible - Ed Welch

welcome back to another episode of Christian Natural Health today I am very pleased to have Ed Welsh with us Ed is a

masters of divinity and a PhD and he is a licensed psychologist and faculty member at the Christian Counseling and

Educational Foundation Ed has been counseling for over 40 years and has written numerous books on the topics of

depression fear and addictions most recently he was a major contributor to the New Life Council Bible from homman

Bibles and New Growth press welcome Ed thanks for joining us well and I'm looking forward to to it thanks for

having me absolutely so tell us a little bit about how biblical counseling is

different from secular counseling is there a difference I would hope so I would hope

so because because scripture what does Scripture do it it scripture opens our

eyes to things that we wouldn't understand on our own so in a sense secular counseling is is careful

thoughtful counsel but it doesn't have access to the things we can't see very

well hopefully Christian or biblical counseling or pastoral counseling or pastoral care is it it's It is Well it

it moves us to the one who says he holds the entire world together uh

so secular counseling has hope for for this age it can re it can

alleviate symptoms many times uh hopefully what what the scripture allows us to do is understand how do we

live life fully and John says abundantly how do we live life abundantly now but

Abundant Life that has Eternal implications when you especially when you think about things like depression

the challenge with depression is there's a certain realism to depression where

depression says why why does anything matter why why bother doing anything because ultimately death erases our res

Ma and and everything else well what what counseling does that uses

scriptures its base it it gives us a different kind of meaning for life does that make sense Lauren oh absolutely I'm

I'm curious like from a nitty-gritty standpoint for those who are doing secular counseling versus biblical

counseling how do they practically look different like what is it that you're doing that's different is it just that you're you're going into scripture or

more talk therapy versus you know Counseling in terms of here's my recommendations based on God's word or

or or help me help me fill in the blanks there that's a great question uh I I

hope it does I hope if you if you took a sort of a 10 minute swath of counseling

you would notice it was Christian let me think real concretely a person I saw this morning for

example um what would be different I I will pray when we're done

uh try to say okay what's happened here and what do we need that only Jesus can

give us so I'll do that uh even though I didn't do it this morning it's not unusual for me to for somebody to say

something so difficult that I said can I pray for you now let's what you're

saying this cry from your soul is so important let me speak this to the Lord

with you and and ask for his help so hopefully you'd see something like that that would be very concrete I think

another thing you have seen this morning is is simply the question what is it

what is it that God says to you that is good right now and that's not a test

it's not um on the third grade teacher saying how you know what's two plus two it's it's let's consider this together

you know what you've laid out is is a very hard situation it's complex

multi-layered um what is it that God says to you now

let's consider that particular question let's let's wrestle with that question those are so those are some of the

things you might find different yeah and it sounds like the implication there is that you expect God to answer like

you're gonna be quiet together and actually hear from a third party the big

third party in that counseling session as opposed to just the one-on-one and just what you know like you're opening

yourself up to outside wisdom yeah and and there are different variations on that there is a Simplicity with which

God speaks so so if if the complexity of the situation doesn't it doesn't we

can't crack that nut very well what we're going to find is all right today

what do we do we there are new mercies this morning I'm just taking from Lamentations 3 we know that he has new

mercies for you this morning and what we're going to do is we're going to trust him for today and what does it

mean in Simplicity to the what are the things in front of us that he has called

us to do there's all kinds of things we can't do anything with what has he called us to do today so that might be

be one of the more specific questions what does God say but there are other variations to the theme where it's not

that unusual for us to say we don't have a clue what God says we honestly don't have a clue uh but instead of being

disappointed by that it becomes it becomes this wonderful opportunity let's

pray let's pray together and and let's talk to other people this week and let's come back and here's the situation what

is it that God says and if we come back the next week and we still don't have any answers what do we do we we pray we

we for myself I would talk to friends and say here's the situation help me think about this what's you know how do

we how do we work on this together the the nature of scripture is not so much

that you have to have all this dramatic insight and have to be smart had to be a Bible scholar the and some ways yeah

we're called to have wisdom as we help one another but wisdom is really it really is founded on a humility before

the Lord and the humility says well hey there's a lot of things we don't know and we are part of this larger body of

Christ and and the spirit of God is pleased to use many different people in our lives absolutely that makes sense so

and distinguish for me that interaction from pastoral care how is this approach

separate from like a Christian seeking counseling versus a Christian seeking pastoral care can you set

teas yeah let me let me demystify counseling a little bit because I even though technically I'm a counselor or

psychologist I I don't I don't use that particular word um I if you ask me what

I did I I'm not quite sure what I would say I used to have a friend who would call me a Renta friend

I never I could never decide if that was a good thing or a bad thing but I decided it was a better

thing than a worse thing um the the fundamentally what we're saying is that

as human beings it is created in us to need help that we are that we are not

capable of going it alone that all wisdom does not rely in us and and in

this world you will have trouble and and you will have a lot of it um and it will

drive you to extremes um we need help that's in some ways that's the most

human thing that we could possibly do to think of ourselves as some sort of independent practitioners I can manage

my life that that is ultimately something something is really very dangerous but to say we need help um we

need help from the Lord word and we help we need help from people that's that's

the beginning of wisdom so so let's take counseling which we tend to think of as very professional and let's move it into

everyday life now this morning I and throughout the

day I've been working on some projects so I haven't had that many conversations but but typically at the

end of the day I'm able to look back on my day and and realize there were so

many places where I looked to my wife for help and it wasn't

simply my wife is a better mechanic than I am so how do I fix this it's not it's

not just those kinds of things it's it's just places where you sweetie would you

pray for me today here's here's a place I it's I'm stuck here I I I feel like

I'm let me think of an example um but I'm anxious about whatever it might be

would you pray for me I just feel like I'm spinning my wheels and I'm out in the future and I'm I'm sort of missing

what's in the present sometimes you will be sweetie I'm distracted here we have we're having an important conversation

and I'm distracted yeah yeah would you pray for me that's that's sort of normal

life um what's counseling counseling is just an extension of normal life where

where what is it it's there's a regularity in which we are seeking help

most of my the help that I receive now it tends to be ad hoc it tends to be it

tends to be sort of the situation arises and I'll go to my wife I'll talk to a friend I'll talk to a colleague um uh

it's I suspect I've even talked to people in an airplane seat next to me before if I'm really desperate if I'm

really desperate I'll just help somebody help somebody help uh but counseling we

tend to think of counseling his help where there's an agreement we're going to this is an important matter we're

going to meet regularly um and we're going to keep going after this until until we see something good that that

comes in and some kind of change that we both think is important so you see what I'm doing I'm trying to demystify

counseling and say it is just another form of help in the same way that pastoral care is a form of help in the

same way that that when we're in a small group with other people it's a form of

help um when we go to a church and hear participate in worship and hear a sermon

it's it's a kind of council if you will people don't know us as well in that situation but it's all different

versions different mediums if you will venues for for seeking help which is a

really good thing to do that's awesome and so as you're talking I'm thinking about the fact that in my area uh

naturopathic medicine the idea that strikes me over and over again is every time I study an herb or I study a

medicinal spice or I study a food the way God made it what blows my mind is that every single one of them is

anti-inflammatory antioxidant uh a lot of them are anti-cancer most of them are antimicrobial they're all chalk full of

all kinds of nutrients it's almost like he wants us to be healthy and like he's trying to come up with B he's he's got

so many different Avenues to get help to us and he just wants us to latch on to

the one that helps that that that is available and the one that we resonate with but he wants to provide what we

need he's a good father and absolutely and he does it Body and Soul absolutely

abely love it so what are some of the issues that you often see that people

come to you for counseling in what are some areas where biblical counseling can be helpful I mean what what isn't but I

suppose yeah give me some some rough ideas that kind of I've been around for a little while and so when you've been

around for a while you you don't have to be a historian who studies history you can just sort of live it out and you you

watch it unfold so there's no question that I've seen I've seen significant

changes in in our culture in the kind of problems or the sheer amount of problems

so there's no question that I've seen that over the decades but but um I think

when I consider what what are the things that I tend to see they are the things

that you saw in the 1980s and the 1950s and the 1750s and you've seen it

throughout the history of humanity um you find the effects of broken

relationships you you find the effects of of

wickedness Wicked words and wicked Deeds against us you find the experience of

rejection uh rejection in a sense where you feel as though you're on the before God and before other

people certainly people are talking about anxiety now in the way that they haven't before and is that simply

because they now have permission authorization to talk about it they have words to talk about it or is it

increased I suspect it's both what do I find I find people who

they they talk about anxiety but now they talk about panic attacks in ways 50

years ago you you you could not find someone who had a panic attack now you now it's

hard to find somebody who hasn't had a panic attack I'll include myself in that group um

um this morning I I mentioned I was was talking to some folks this morning um

this sort of this um sort of obsessive and compulsive style that can accompany

somebody's anxiety as a way to try to get control in in their world um person

I took talked to this morning was was a person who found himself obsessing about

physical problems in his life and it was growing and growing and growing he didn't have any significant ones but he

found himself thinking about death thinking about decline thinking about there's something going on I have to

find out what it is what is it it's anxiety it's very recognizable anxiety

but it's taking a very physical kind of form um I find I find the SS at root

that we encounter today are the ones that have appeared all through history

and obviously they're all since I've appeared all through history and they're common to humanity you find scripture

addressing them they're they're on God's heart for us as well yeah absolutely and

that just reminds me as you're talking about things that have changed um I see headlines all the time now about the

suicide rates that are skyrocketing so are you seeing a lot more depression than you used to it's for in the the

people that are coming to you or what kind of Trends are you seeing yeah absolutely I'm seeing people

who you know that that there are different kinds of depression there's some kinds of depression I think it's

just plain old physical it's you know the person circumstances haven't changed

there's nothing different in their life but all of a sudden it's as if the world literally has gone from color to GRS um

it's literally gone from feeling enthusiasm one day and feeling numb the

the next so so I think there that's that is sort of the classic depression and I

don't know if that has necessarily increased as much but I I certainly continue to see that I think what you

find now are are people who who are in depressive situations in overwhelming

situations and it's their body reacting to it no no not we're talking about anxiety a little bit um I I do suspect

for some of the depression we experience right now it's it's a world that seems

out of control to a person there's too many things there's too many relationships there's too many there's

too many nasty comments there's you know too many people to please and there's too many decisions to make about your

future so it it it begins with anxiety and anxiety it feels like you're stirred

up it's you know your mind is racing and I think sometimes it's almost as if depression is an xiety that is given up

that that I there's there's nothing I can do about this and and why bother doing anything so so certainly I do see

I think anxiety that it's has worn itself out and it's looking like depression yeah there's this I don't

remember what the study was it made me so sad when I heard it but you know they' never do this these days because of you know animal rights and whatever

but the story of a an eel that was put there's a piece of glass eel's over here

food's over here on the other side and he kept trying to get at it trying to get at it trying to get at it and

eventually he realized he wasn't going to and he gave up they took the glass away and he died of hunger because have

the The Hope anymore to continue to go out and seek that so my question for you

is from a Biblical counseling standpoint where God's word has the answer to all

of these things but a lot of us can hear it and it'll feel like it just doesn't sink in we can be like yeah yeah yeah I

know what strategies do you have to help it to get from here to here to actually

sink down into the heart yeah well sometimes we don't know what the words are though for the words to go from our

head to our heart it's it's it's a challenging book it's

it's about an ancient neres culture it's yeah how many times have I read

Galatians and it talks about circumcision think for years I saying well what is that I don't even know what

it is and everybody's making a big deal it and when I began to understand those things a little bit more clearly I said

well still why why couldn't Paul have written something that was more timely for all of us in other words scripture

is it's there are two features to scripture what was God saying to them in that

particular context which is hard enough but now the question is now understanding how God

works then how does that what does that say for what I'm experiencing what I'm

feeling right now with the the my kids showing disrespect those kinds of things

um it's it really is a very I think a very challenging process to to draw out

of scripture the sort in in a way that it shapes us specifically for modern

struggles so I think that's I think you're you're identifying I think two things one is once we know it how does

it become part of us but but I think really the significant

challenge is is how can how can scripture speak in a way that is

accessible it shouldn't be too mysterious it's it should be available to Children um how can it how can we

hear it in a way that's accessible and it's deep it's hopeful

yes this is this is what I need and also not in a way where it's going to be some

sort of magic treatment uh I suspect one of the challenges with with your work is

is is people would prefer to have a kind of pill that the next day things are going to be better but but you're what

the kind of work you do is really very similar to what I do where it's it's

it's a endurance it's an endurance in the right direction and you watch change

sort of sort of emerge gradually in that context that's that's the way the Lord

is is pleased to have his world run it's just how things are built we grow gradually everything happens gradually

and there's something right about that for our souls because otherwise we'd say

Lord help oh good now now I feel better I don't everything's fine and off I go I

can have my own independent life but who wants that um it's the one of the

challenges in life is how do we wake up and say Jesus help me and then the next day say the same thing and the next they

say the same thing that's that pleases God and and it tends to be the way he

works so and you identified the idea of how do you distill all of the information in scripture and apply it to

our modern culture and our our personal situations and that's kind of what you did as far as the articles that you

wrote for the Life counsil Bible you're trying to take that information and bring it into the modern day so that

people can apply it give us a little bit of like some of the topics you talk about and maybe give us a deep dive into

one of them okay uh now I I didn't write all the topics uh otherwise otherwise I wouldn't

encourage people to get it you know not that I'm demeaning my own work but but when you're when you're

trying to deal with just this broad group of human struggles to have various

voices I think is a real benefit um and it's the way it should be so I think there are 150 short articles that are

interspersed at appropriate times throughout this particular Bible and I suspect they're probably around 30 to 50

authors or so who were behind those which again that that really makes it

strong it it it moves from arguments with our

kids um uh there might even be an article on what happens when I don't

like my kids anymore I I can remember first time I can remember the first time I ever heard that was why my my my I had

two daughters and why they were very young and when they're very young how could you ever How could somebody ever

say they don't like their children these precious little things are the sweetest things in the entire universe um uh well

I guess it's the same way you could say what happens when you don't like your spouse who would have thought those things would have happened so it has

sort of that every day what do you do when how do you love someone when you don't love someone or how do you love

someone when you don't like someone on one hand on the other hand you have things that that don't seem as though

scripture would speak such as bipolar disorder um which which is which is I

think is most prominently a physical and brain phenomena but but what we want to

do is show the depth of scripture but also show here's its breadth that doesn't mean it's going to solve every

problem but it is going to give us inroads into those problems that grant

us hope in the midst of them and also not only grant us hope but give us the opportunities where well

there's a passage in scripture 2 Corinthians 4 even if the outer person is wasting

away the inner person can be renewed day by day um so it moves into some of the

more psychiatric kind of problems as well and and all kinds of things in between so and some of the things that

might be relevant too I see that you had one article in there that was on like let's say Eating Disorders what does

Scripture have to say about that uh we're were just talking about

Galatians a little while ago and in how Galatians is sometimes it feels inscrutable okay

it's was good for them but but not for now the the heart of Galatians I'm going to choose the

anorectic part of Eating Disorders um rather than the more bulimic

overeating I realize they can go together um

the scripture never uses the word anorexia and that that's the that's the challenge for us you can't look it up in

a concordance and all of a sudden there are the five verses for it but we do believe that the scripture

the word of Christ speaks to our hearts and all kinds of different challenges that we can

have in anorexia one of the one of the challenges is people use the word

control you want to have some kind of control over your world and you can't

and you can't so you you narrow your world more and more so you try to have

absolute control over over your own body which which obviously when we're doing

things that are beyond what God has called us to things are going to go a bit Haywire but but but the question I

think oftentimes for anorexia is I how can I have control

in and of myself where God is not part of it because I don't want to trust

anyone else I don't I don't I don't want to trust a human being and I don't want to trust God himself I it's it's it's

essential for me to have some sort of control over my body and oftentimes it's control over my own feelings um uh how

can I somehow kill these feelings that I have so so I think the first thing is is

is that we are brought into this completely different world where it's not about how we perform and how much we

have control over things it's it's trusting another one who has control so

what does that do it it's frightening to a person with a needing disorder but

it's also appealing because they know they can't they they know their control isn't working and what does it mean to

enter into this world where you don't have to somehow be perfect you don't have to to in fact the way into this

world is you acknowledge that you're not that you acknowledge you acknowledge you

are this thoroughgoing mess so what is that it's it's a kind of door for

somebody who is struggling with control and and anorex anorectic sort of

behaviors once in that door what do we do we we invite the person to speak

which sometimes is very difficult for them to do but inviting them to speak we're not just being nice we are trying

to to we're trying to say this is how life Works in God's house where I think I'm

thinking of the Psalms right now and the Psalms have an implicit question behind every one of them where the Lord says to

us tell me what's on your heart he he says even though I know your heart I

know you better than you know yourself it is important for me for you to say it

so fine words and I'll even help you find words and that's what the Psalms are often times is it like this is it

like this does it feel like this does it feel like you're sinking does it feel like you're on you're right hovering over death

itself uh speak to me and here's the requirement say anything you want

but here's what I want say those things that are most important to you speak

about your fears all the so many Psalms talk about fears talk about your despair talk about

talk about those times when you feel like I have forsaken you talk about those things that are on your heart what

you feel most deeply so you see I'm giving I'm giving I realiz I'm going a little bit longer here Lauren but but

we're looking here's an entrance to scripture a different world than trying to control and manage and and and and be

perfect so here's the entrance once in the Lord invites us to speak from our

hearts and and what you often find with with eating problems you find that there

has been rejection you find that there's been hard things in the person's past and and what does it mean to to to come

to a God who knows those things and and he says that you can trust me I will

make things right I will be the one to make things right um the the day will

come when things are right so he says that but the other thing he says is is that if people have done things to us

that have been truly sinful and wicked it's we call it's shame that's what it is it's it's I I you you believe what

has been done against you you have been treated in a disgusting way so you believe you're disgusting and in the midst of that

here's well what does the Lord do he he goes into shame himself himself and and

finds US takes our shame on himself he he takes our guilt and our shame and

somehow he puts it to death even in his own life and and then he says I'm

thinking of um passage in Isaiah no like I'll use a Psalm this is

Psalm 56 I think those who look to him are radiant their faces are never

covered with shame which is another way of saying that here he is here the Lord

is doing something very different again uh where he he takes our shame from us

he he comes into a union with us that that is that is described as marriage

that's one of the prominent images in scripture and he says he says like in

marriage you you inherit the debts of the person and you inherit the

reputation of the person um a spouse participates in the reputation of their

spouse and and we now are joined not to the person who committed the wickedness

we are now been yanked we've been detached from that person because of Christ and now we are connected to the

king himself who has all things and and we have been elevated with great honor

I'm just giving you little taste of these things excuse me for going on and on but what I'm trying to do is say

here's anorexia here eating disorders and the Bible doesn't talk about it talks about moderation and things like

that but that doesn't seem to go very deep what we're trying to do is just saying here's here's a few little

corridors we find as we enter into God's house and they're just some of them the

CR the criteria for those corridors is they have to sound really good if it's not biblical care if it

sounds judging and condemning absolutely yes it's called Good News and and so

frankly even even if even if the spirit is identifying our sins that's really

good news because because sins unattended to they they lead us away from the Lord and there's just no life

there so anyway excuse me for going on and on on just that one particular point

but it's it is an illustration of how the question how does Scripture

speak to all these different layers that somebody can have in their own lives um these articles try to put together a bit

of a map for somebody who's struggling with it and and it's hopefully we we it it seems to be a hopeful map in in most

of these articles so yeah that's wonderful and it seems like so as you say the Bible doesn't talk about the

word anorexia or the word bipolar or the word gender dysphoria or anything along those lines that are common today that a

lot more people are dealing with but the root it almost sounds correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're

suggesting that scripture deals with the core issues that underly all of those

things and it's a matter of using you know what scripture says and the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the

wisdom of somebody who knows scripture well who's in agreement with you to figure out where's the core issue that

scripture speaks to that you're dealing with so that he can set you free yeah absolutely and and what you oftentimes

find is is so many of our struggles they go to like what you're saying sort of a

common core of of guilt of Shame of of fear of

Anger of addiction you being being ens snared by something that used to be your

friend and used to be life to you um and and victimization um rejection you know

those those six or so are spoken I can't say they're they're

spoken on every page of scripture but they're spoken everywhere in scripture in those 10 to be the substrate for for

so many of the modern problems that we experience absolutely that makes sense

so if like let's say somebody who's in Ministry leadership pastors whatever if

they get a hold of the Life Council Bible is this something that you forse or the Hope was they would be able to use as a tool for helping the people

that come to them for counseling for biblical or pastoral care however you phrase it I what what I would hope and

this has happened a few times for me uh that we're reading the Bible and this one of these articles

appear my wife and I were reading Romans 1 and then there was this wonderful article on homosexuality and sexual

struggles um um and so we read the article uh and and what do we do this is

this is fascinating so the next time our fames together we talk about that article you you you you hear about it

and you want to pass it along you want to pass the word to to others um so

that's that's one things that I've seen in my own life it's sort of contagious

when when scripture really settles in and goes to the heart like you're saying

and it it speaks powerfully to some of the issues of life we can't we don't want to contain it we we want to talk

about it so that's that's certainly one of the things so for a pastor it might mean you're reading this Bible and

here's this article I got to I got to get this to this other person they're going to love this they're going to love it or just a friend you know hey this is

this has been good for my own soul I just want to I photocopied this and here here's here's here's a couple Pages take

a look at it um that's that's what we want it it's it's not that the Bible

that that particular what we're doing in Life Council Bible is so somebody doesn't have to get that

particular Bible but the concept behind it how can we access scripture so it

speaks so it's like this Treasure Chest this speaks to all of life that's that's

a critical question and Life Council Bible tries to be an asset to the church

in answering the question one of those tools that helps people to recognize that the answers to even all of the

modern issues is still addressed in scripture if you approach it with that

expectation and sometimes we need help and sometimes I need help to answer that question what is it the God says to this

so so what have I not asked you that you want to make sure you leave with our audience that's a that's a nasty

question to ask Lauren because you can tell I started riffing on on eating things so you better not ask me you

better not open up anything I I

um I've had this enviable job you've had an enviable job too granted um but the Envy

of my job is is for decades it's been

what are the struggles of human life what are they like uh to understand them

and then to make that bridge what is it that God says um and and to see the Lord

who cares for the details of our life to see how in his word he speaks so

profoundly so lovingly and gently inevitably gently to to those particular

issues to see that um in scripture that's to me that that's an

enviable job and in this Bible is just sort of just bringing other people into

into the beauty of that kind of work um that scripture I think I mentioned before scripture is much more of a

treasure chest than we we anticipate there's a lot more beautiful things and there's more to come yeah absolutely I

hear that so where can people go to learn more about you

uh I believe most of my work hangs out on

ccf.org um uh if they want to know more about me I guess there's a little bit in

there but there's not that much exciting to know but there's a lot of there's a lot of great articles in there that that

are from myself and my colleagues over the years so ccf.org would be would be the place for

me uh the Life Council Bible itself I got one for free so I didn't I

didn't have I didn't have to go on the we I didn't have to go somewhere to find it so I can't tell you where to find it

I haven't looked it up I'll find it I will find it and I will link to that in the show notes and the

ccf.org so thank you so much Ed this has been very insightful I really appreciate

your time like a good way to spend some time in the day isn't it yes thanks for

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